10. Cultivating Psychological Skills with Bonnie Robson, M.D.

Episodes have been transcribed to improve the accessibility of this information. Our best attempts have been made to ensure accuracy,  however, if you discover a possible error please notify us at info@bendybodies.org

00:00:00 

Jennifer Milner 

Welcome to bendy bodies. This is co-host Jennifer Milner here with Dr. Linda Bluestein. For another episode of  this dance specific series. Today we are so fortunate to be chatting with psychiatrists and performing arts  medicine specialist. Dr. Bonnie Robson, Bonnie has served as a consultant to numerous ballet schools and  companies has performed original arts related research and as a popular invited speaker at national and  international conferences that span the globe, her mindfulness approach to performance and psychological skills  training programs have been included in the curriculum of numerous universities and post-graduate arts  programs. In addition to serving on the editorial board for the journal medical problems of performing artists,  Bonnie has served on numerous committees and boards, including the, a board of directors, the eye Adam's  education committee, the healthy dancer, Canada membership committee, and the dance USA task force on  dancer health. Bonnie has received numerous awards for her contribution to arts education, including a lifetime  achievement and the bill Dawson award.  

00:01:04 

Jennifer Milner 

Although Bonnie is currently retired from clinical practice, she continues to dedicate her time to educating  performing artists about how to achieve and maintain optimal resilience. Also please note that this is  information and not medical advice. Bonnie she asked me to call her by her first name is extremely  knowledgeable through her extensive research and work with the dance community. We are so fortunate to have  her on the bendy bodies podcast today. On a personal note, I am thrilled that the three of us are reunited after we presented together on hypermobility at the most recent IADMS conference last October. Hello and welcome to  bendy bodies podcast.  

00:01:58 

Bonnie Robson 

Thank you so much. I'm really pleased to be here and admire the work that you've been doing at bendy bodies.  

00:02:06 

Jennifer Milner 

Well, we've loved doing it, but I have to say it's good to have our third musketeer back with us. Thank you.  Absolutely. Bonnie, these are clearly very stressful times for people. What can you tell us about stress and why  many people are feeling more stressed than ever before?  

00:02:27 

Bonnie Robson 

Well, as you say, everybody is in this together and everybody's feeling stress. Some people are coping better and  that's the thing about stress. It's an inability to cope or to think you're not going to cope with what you perceive  as a threat, and it could be a threat to your mental health, which I'm interested in or your physical health or your  emotional wellbeing. And, and people have been saying my emotions, aren't quite what they used to be, but I'm  doing really well doing a lots of stuff. I'm taking exercise and I'm eating healthy, but still I'm feeling a little  funny. It's kind of an imbalance between the demand you have in your coping abilities. Today we have a lot of  stresses to the stress of isolation, of not knowing what's going to happen next. That's a biggie fear of the  infection. Of course, that's realistic and frustration, with not really being given the goods.  

00:03:33 

Bonnie Robson 

The news is this real news, is this not news? So inadequate information and not having the supplies can be very  irritating, not having what you normally expect. Oh, and for the dancers that we're talking to, a lot of them are,  and a lot of you dancers out there are troubled by finances. You can't have healthy food if you don't have enough  money and many people lost their contracts or jobs, when the isolation occurred. That brings a really big one up  the loss of purpose. If I'm not dancing and I'm not a dancer, what am I?  

00:04:21 

Jennifer Milner 

Yeah, I'm hearing a lot of that come in conversations with my dancers, but this is that time of them saying, what  is my identity? And what does it look like? And you mentioned we're all in isolation right now. A lot of us are  in, on shelter, in place. What, what are the risks of this physical and social isolation?  

00:04:41 

Bonnie Robson 

Well, you can be more emotional. Some stress is good, but too much can slow you down and make you not want  to handle things for people who were pretty stressed, tolerant, they could bounce back, they could handle  criticism. That's what dancers do. Now we're saying, what do we do now to handle the stress when I'm just  feeling at sixes and sevens and not getting anything done. Getting as much normality into your life as you can is  helpful. You want to have your regular schedule and everybody's talked about this, but are you, are we all really  doing it, getting up at the right time, the regular time, every day using an alarm clock, if we need to scheduling  our day. We can talk about that later about how to set up your day so you can maximize your energy. Some of  the things dancers can do is if they're not finding their stress level is high, they can rely on taking some dance  classes.  

00:05:49 

Bonnie Robson 

I know most people have tried all the different kinds and it's very exciting. Isn't it to try, a dance class with  someone you've wanted to take from, also your yoga is online and yoga. Breathing is wonderful. Journaling  planning, the day, keeping a routine that's for dealing with stress. That's the best part, and do using your body  skills because people use their bodies all the time, and then suddenly they're, isolation, see how you can use  your body. I like, tricks like body skills, body scan, progressive muscle relaxation, those all use your body to  help you deal with stress. 

00:06:36 

Jennifer Milner 

I'm thinking about for dancers specifically, and this sense of physical isolation, right? Being kept out of the  dance studios and then social isolation dancers tend to be hardwired differently as far as how they respond to  things. We're taught in dance studios to respond to authority very well. So we follow that chain of command.  We're taught to not, show our emotions perhaps, and to deal with them, in a very, just deal with it yourself kind  of manner. I'm wondering if there's anything like that gets magnified during social and physical isolation may  perhaps even more so for dancers than for other people.  

00:07:24 

Bonnie Robson 

Well, the social isolation, let's deal with the dance class and bringing it into your kitchen. What's missing is that  the teacher in the room. Even if the teacher can see you a bit in the gallery view, it's not the same as having that  person there. Just just you've said. It's not as rewarding to be in the program or the class, the yoga class, or the  dance class or the Pilates, whatever, but you also talked about, the social isolation. I think it what's important to  me is while we're all alone, we're not lonely. We don't have to be lonely. We don't have to have that. It's  important for us to talk to friends and family. Again, dancers, you like the silence, that you find it very hard to  talk to somebody, especially about emotions. Please let me encourage you to do that, to tell people how you're  feeling.  

00:08:30 

Bonnie Robson 

So you get some feedback. You might tell somebody about an experience you had, walking your dog. There  was, I had the exact same thing. Oh my goodness. That's so validating and makes you feel so good when other  people are saying the same thing.  

00:08:52 

Jennifer Milner 

Well, and I am noticing that, with my dancers there is when I work with them, obviously I work with them on a  physical level and I'm noticing that almost all of them have lost a fair amount of balance. I don't even mean like  complicated dancing balance. I mean, standing one leg balancing, but that has lost. I was talking to a friend of  mine, just yesterday, Alicia had about this and she said she was reading some preliminary papers saying that,  when you stopped doing the complicated movements, you start to lose your vestibular balance quite quickly.  That when you start to lose your vestibular balance, your suboccipital muscles start to tighten up. You get neck  tightening, which can lead to headaches and all that. Were kind of brainstorming what's going on with the  dancers, losing their balance. One of the things I realized is dancers are so conditioned to have constant  feedback.  

00:09:46 

Jennifer Milner 

Even in these great dance studios that they've set up or their parents had set up for them in their homes, they  don't have mirrors all around. I have dancers do things I can tell when I watch them move, that they are not as  aware of where their bodies are in space anymore, because they're not getting that constant feedback, all of this  to say that we are not getting constant feedback in other ways as well. We're not dancers aren't getting poured  into verbally over zoom, and they're not getting that feedback in the dressing room, talking to each other and  comparing aches and pains. And so they're not. That's part of social isolation that I don't think dancers are  thinking about is that we're not getting that verbal feedback. As you said, being alone is different than being  lonely and even just getting that feedback of, yes, it was hot when I went outside today too.  

00:10:37 

Jennifer Milner 

It starts to give you that framework of your surroundings and of your life. So I agree that so important.  

00:10:46 

Bonnie Robson 

Yes. And and dancers, have learned over time. Especially the older dancers who've grown up in studios where  they were taught not to show their pain. It can be really hard to, put into words what you're feeling and not to  feel vulnerable and inadequate. So again, we're all in it together. And, some people, however, are I've noticed. I  don't know if you've noticed, but are taking on more than they normally would. Not being less functional they're working, they're taking on. I can do that. I can do that. Oh sure. I could do that. And we're getting too much  peace. One woman I talked to was working from five 30 in the morning until eight at night, every day. Where  she working just as we are now online and something has come up called zoom fatigue. Have you ever noticed,  

00:11:48 

Jennifer Milner 

Yes. People have been talking about that. Yeah.  

00:11:51 

Bonnie Robson 

It's, it's where the brain, makes changes because when we're trying to talk to people online, we can't pick up the  normal social cues, the little, things, your eyes dart one way, or you nod or whatever. You, it's really hard to  pick those up, when you're using the zoom camera. It's, the work is doubled and the cues are very hard to  interpret you get zoom fatigue.  

00:12:25 

Jennifer Milner 

Yes. For people who are so used to getting that kind of constant feedback, that's, that can leave you in a very  place. As you said, some people will overfill their time trying to justify their, what they see as their idleness.  Right. Exactly.  

00:12:44 

Linda Bluestein 

So, so that,  

00:12:46 

Bonnie Robson 

Just because you're a nice person and you have the, you think you have the time, but maybe you don't have the  time.  

00:12:54 

Jennifer Milner 

Yeah. Yeah. So.  

00:12:55 

Bonnie Robson 

This could be something really positive for all of us to learn, to say no. That when we returned to work, we've  practiced saying no. Well I can't, I'm sorry. I can't do that. I'm already busy that day.  

00:13:09 

Jennifer Milner 

Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think when we returned to work, things are going to be so different. It's going to go  through these huge swings from one side to the next and back again. Okay. Looking at this, the isolation, one of  the big questions I have is, about sleep. Are you seeing that impaired sleep as a, an effect of this shelter in place  time?  

00:13:33 

Bonnie Robson 

Oh, you got it. Sleep is one of the things people are complaining about how do I get sleep? The first person who  told me about their sleep problem said, I woke up in the middle of the night. I never do that. There felt like there  was this huge stone on my chest. And immediately I thought, Oh, I'm sick. No, it was a feeling of isolation, a  feeling of anxiety, maybe a feeling that I'm not really coping well, people normally get seven for good for  dancers. It's good for them to get seven to nine hours sleep, but they don't always get that because, dancers come  home late, have to settle in, calm down if they've had a performance and then the next morning they'd be up  early for a technical rehearsal or class. I think that the sleep is so important. I think, Linda, you were talking  about, sleep affecting, people's immune system.  

00:14:42 

Bonnie Robson 

Well Oh, yes. 

00:14:45 

Linda Bluestein 

Yeah, absolutely. People like dancers who are so used to being so physically active they're going to kind of  crash when they find, do get into bed because they are so physically exhausted, which will even if their  circadian cycle is off, because of course for dancers, it's harder for them to be on like the ideal cycle as you  pointed out, they often have performances and things late in the evening. Yeah, sleep is critically important for  proper, optimal immune function. That is something that I think a lot of people are really struggling with, even  if they know that's what they should be doing, that they should be getting up when the sun is up and they should  be staying up, ideally not napping, or if they do nap, make it very brief 20 minutes or less. I think a lot of people  are really struggling with that.  

00:15:34 

Linda Bluestein 

One of the hugest problems with that is, as our screens and we're using our screens so much more, rather than  interacting with each other and the light from the screens suppresses melatonin production, which is what  regulates our circadian rhythm and will tell us it's nighttime, it's time to fall asleep. That's, so that's something  that a lot of people are really, I hear a lot of people struggling with that and see a lot of people struggling with  that. Bonnie do you have suggestions?  

00:16:04 

Bonnie Robson 

Well, I do. Before that, there's, two other kinds of three other kinds of there's light sleep, deep sleep and REM  sleep and all of those, we cycle through that four or five times a night as I understand it. If we only get, even if  we have seven or eight hours sleep, 20% of that time is deep sleep. That's the one I think that helps with your  immune system and your physical recovery and even growth. So we do need the sleep. What are some things  you said too, that we can help get ready? You have a regular bedtime just as you get up early, you try and have  your bedtime, at a regular time and allow yourself whatever time you need every night to unwind, to get ready  for bed. We would never try and put a child to bed by taking them, putting them in their pajamas, taking them  into the room and say, night, go to sleep.  

00:17:04 

Bonnie Robson 

That's not going to work. We all know that. Will you need time to you remind them that they're going to have a  bath now and they're going to get into their pajamas. They're going to have their little snack. Oh. We should  have a little snack, not a huge meal, little snack, healthy fruit, few crackers, even toast and jam. The nutritionist  tells me is acceptable as a bedtime snack, no electronics, as you said, that's really important. And some people  find a bath help. Now there's controversy about exercise. Do you remember? They said, no exercise right before  bedtime, but, there's been some, coming out lately, in Texas actually, showing with athletes and dancers are  definitely athletes. Let's take that advice that, mild exercise is not bad yoga and they even have some yoga  things that help. Let me see if I can remember, the pose of the child is good.  

00:18:16 

Bonnie Robson 

The legs up the wall is good. Double pigeon, which is a, a a, it's a funny way. You're sit cross-legged and you  can just pull it up online and, Shavasana the typical, pose that the yoga teachers take at the end of class, which  everybody looks forward to, and that prepares you for bed actually. There are things that you can do again with  your body. My favorites are, body scan and progressive muscle relaxation. If you're having real trouble falling  asleep,  

00:18:53 

Jennifer Milner 

I love to, focusing on that on mindful breathing. That's some work that I've done with my dancers and I  encourage them to do, some nice, deep, really great diaphragmatic breaths as they're trying to go to bed to try to  stimulate that vagus nerve and switch their body into that parasympathetic state. Right. I, and the thing is  dancers don't consider everything that you just listed exercise. If it doesn't stretch them out or get their heart rate  up or increase their turns, it's not exercise. You don't have to call it exercise dancers. You can just call it a  physical line, whatever you want to call it, relaxation.

00:19:36 

Bonnie Robson 

Stretch, whatever. Right.  

00:19:38 

Jennifer Milner 

I don't want them to hear the word exercise and think I should go do some cardio because you're right. Going  through those gentle movements and focusing on that breath can be quite helpful. Thank you for spelling all of  that out for them. Are there issues that might come up that you have seen increase over social isolation, like,  sleep abnormalities or anything like that? It can not be, if you've already got something like sleep apnea, or just  regular insomnia can not be exacerbated in situations.  

00:20:11 

Bonnie Robson 

Yes. The waking up the insomnia, the difficulty falling asleep. If you're already prone to, periodic limb  movements, restless leg syndrome, those can be problematic for you at this time. And then you worry more.  You wake up in the night, get up, you go into the next room here. I'll read that again. This would be a time to  check out your sleep hygiene. How's your room? Is it completely dark? Is it quiet? Is it cool? sometimes people  just leave their beds cause who's going to see, well sometimes now that we're on zoom, we are all seeing, but it  really does help to get your room ready to have your bad major, have it already for your sleep. I was going to  ask Linda to tell us again about, rest of legs and any supplements we might consider to help with our sleep. Oh I  think magnesium is wonderful, but.  

00:21:20 

Linda Bluestein 

Oh yes. Magnesium is wonderful. So many people have a magnesium deficiency. Again, not knowing any  individual person's circumstances, but in my clinical practice, I do put a lot of my patients on magnesium. I also  put a lot of people on melatonin. We talked about melatonin earlier, a really important hormone for regulating  the circadian cycle. The interesting thing is melatonin also has beneficial effects on the immune system. There  are numerous people that have come out with recommendations. There's a lot of scientific studies that have been  done showing that melatonin has a beneficial effects, even up to doses that can be, quite high relative to, what  we would normally recommend. I've put some information about this, like in my blog and the Institute of  functional medicine has some great information. If people want more details about dosing and things like that.  That's one thing that can be really helpful.  

00:22:21 

Linda Bluestein 

One thing that I think is important to mention that we would want to avoid is, especially in an excess is alcohol.  A lot of people I think, feel like, Oh, I have a drink and then it helps me fall asleep. That's possible that it makes  you sleepy and can, kind of make you feel drowsy, but it doesn't really, it actually reduces the amount of REM  sleep that you get. It doesn't actually help you get quality sleep and alcohol actually impairs the immune system.  That's something that I think is important for people to be aware of at this time. The other thing that I wanted to  mention in terms of a supplement is something called palmitoethanolamide. Now that's a really long word. But  it's called PEA for short. Now they're just be careful if you Google PEA there, you're going to come up with a  lot of different PEAs.  

00:23:16 

Linda Bluestein 

Again, you there's information about this, like in my blog and we'll have it on some, episode details. Anyway,  this is a, an it's an endocrine. It acts on endocannabinoid receptors and has a lot of different beneficial effects. It  can actually help, improve, sleep, decreased pain, and also stabilize mast cells. It's also on the Institute of  functional medicines list of supplements for Coronavirus. So it's really fascinating to me. Yeah it's really  fascinating to me because basically the things that I had already been recommending to my patients for  decreasing inflammation, decreasing pain, specific to mast cell activation syndrome, other things associated  with being, hyper mobile are the same list of things in general, that the Institute of functional medicine and  other, organizations are recommending for boosting your immune system. It kind of reminds me of a saying that  I heard once at a urology meeting, my husband's a urologist and the speaker was saying, what's good for your  heart is going to be good for your prostate. 

00:24:20 

Linda Bluestein 

It's reassuring to me that things that are good for reducing inflammation and for making our body generally  more well are also going to better, are going to be helpful for immune functioning.  

00:24:37 

Bonnie Robson 

Before we leave sleep, we should talk about dreaming, I think.  

00:24:42 

Linda Bluestein 

Oh yes, definitely. What about dreaming and are people having more vivid dreams nowadays?  

00:24:48 

Bonnie Robson 

Oh yes, they are. Exactly. In fact, people who have not had dreams before frequently are waking up with dreams  and, they're startled and they're still anxious. Dancer's anxiety, dreams, are pretty typical. They that's how their  body is recognizing stress. They're saying I'm ready to go on stage, but I don't have my costume on, I'm on the  way to theater, but I'm in traffic and I can't get there in time. One dancer, it was not quite as related to dance, but  she was getting lost and couldn't find her way. It seemed like she was little and, her pair, she had never been  lost. This has never happened to her in reality shows. She's never had that experience before, but it was very  vivid. You wake up distressed and what are you going to do, in order to get back to sleep. Go into another room,  stay warm, do some of your, practicing of your, mindfulness, as you said, practicing your breathing.  

00:26:02 

Bonnie Robson 

There's a yoga breath, which is very hard to describe, over the air because you have to practice it. Many of it  where you put your middle index finger in the middle of your forehead and then using your thumb and your ring  finger, your you alternately close each nostril, breathing in, close the nostril, breathe out the other nostril and so  on. That is explicitly calming and very good to use in that situation. I like to finish my dream in a positive way  and take the, new ending, back to bed with me. Many people report that it, I, if they don't, they, when they fall  asleep, they go right back into the dream where they left off, just like Netflix. Finish it positively, review your  sleep hygiene, practice your body scan, true peer Mar your mindful breathing. Next night, take a positive image  to bed with you.  

00:27:15 

Bonnie Robson 

I like my safe place and we can talk about developing a safe place later. That's one of the psychological tricks of  the trade, and make sure that you go through your whole sleep hygiene before going to sleep the next night.  You're not replicating having another night of bad dreams or anxiety dreams. They're not bad. They're just  horrible situations that you have no control over. I'm wondering why exactly and leave you feeling exhausted  and stressed and anxious all day too. Sometimes.  

00:27:51 

Linda Bluestein 

That's really interesting, and I should mention that melatonin can actually cause you to have more vivid  dreaming. Yeah, and it is quite interesting because, melatonin and another medication that I, this is a medication  you need a prescription for a low dose naltrexone can also cause more vivid dreaming. I love your idea about  rewriting the dream in your mind and finishing it on a positive note, because I think that is one challenge that a  lot of us are having maybe before we would go to bed and we would have some thoughts in our mind, but at  least it was more positive. There were a lot more knowns than unknowns, and now we might be going to bed  and having more difficulty kind of doing, cleaning out the hard drive and shutting things down.  

00:28:43 

Bonnie Robson 

Yeah, that's why you need enough time make you don't, can't expect yourself to just go, as you said, the very physical dancer, can't wait to get to bed and fall asleep as a very short sleep latency time to fall asleep, but not  maybe not so much now. 

00:29:00 

Linda Bluestein 

Do you have any suggestions for, making up for that huge difference in amount of activity that will have a really  dramatic impact on neuro-transmitter levels in the brain? And that's not anyone's fault? I think it's, I think that's  one important thing that's helpful for people to realize is not to blame themselves and add that on top of  everything else.  

00:29:26 

Bonnie Robson 

I think something that helps you where I like to think of self rewarding activity. That involves another  psychological skill called goal setting. You may have as a dancer at one time or other had a journal and a dance  journal, and you wrote in it, the positive things and you, that happened to you. You could look back and review  and bring those to class. In a later thing, I propose that we do the same journaling and preparing for the day, in  our mind now that certainly before bed writing down all the things that you have to do tomorrow, and then  putting them aside will help you not worry about, Oh my goodness, I've got to call so-and-so, Oh my goodness.  I've got to, you've already dealt with that, so that'll help with your sleep. When you're getting up in the morning  and we've already talked about having our routine, brushing our teeth, doing all our regular things have  breakfast supplements.  

00:30:30 

Bonnie Robson 

On each day should be planned with short and long-term goals. Maybe a short term goal that I know I can do  tomorrow that I have wanted to do for some time. For example, my favorite example is cleaning out the fridge.  Now hands up, all of you who want it to clean out the fridge today, my hand is not up for the record. Neither is  mine actually, but that's okay. You can break it down and you can, we can use a trick called, task analysis and  we could add, and it's like goal setting, but overall, we're going to have clean the fridge and we're going to make  it. I'm not going to clean the whole fridge. I'm going to just clean the vegetable bins tomorrow. I'm going to go  for my walk. Now it's possible. Not everybody can walk. Some people find it there on the 23rd floor of the  apartment building.  

00:31:33 

Bonnie Robson 

They're only going to go down once a day if that, and even active dancers fund that a long haul back up the  alternative is to take the elevator, which is functioning, but that a lot of people still find that it's very risky going  into the elevator. They would prefer to walk up the 23 flights of stairs. That may have, you may have to plan  what you're going to do when you go for your walk. That you, because you're only going to go down once a day,  you have to make it your schedule flexible. It's not like I must do this at 11 o'clock a little flexibility in there, a  little wiggle room, but achievable and challenging. I mean, the fridge is definitely challenging. Dancers, are not,  usually very good at limiting themselves. If they put it on the schedule, they want to do it and they want to do it  well.  

00:32:42 

Bonnie Robson 

If they're, if they're to clean this thing, they want to clean that sink till it to their standard, which is usually a very  high, yeah, it is put a routine in and then you try and follow it. Having written down all the things in your  journal that you're going to do, including, I'm going to make myself a healthy salad for lunch and I'm going to  have lunch. Megan make time that can be very rewarding because you check it off. I eat a healthy lunch. I've  even had some of my dancers posting pictures of the healthy food that they're making on now that they have  time beautiful things that they've taken a lot of time over and taking time to set the table and take the picture.  And, bodies love regularity.  

00:33:39 

Bonnie Robson 

The dancers are giving to their body if they give it regular routine, because your body likes that, Oh, it's time to  do. If you have pets, you'll know that they know exactly what time it is when it's dinner time, they're there and  ready and waiting, and don't you be late. You want to put down what, if you wait till suppertime, and then you  

say, what have I got here? And what's left over, what can I do? That's too late. Do your plan and stick to your  plan. That is tremendously helpful in getting through the day. 

00:34:21 

Jennifer Milner 

Now I want to circle back to something that you said there, because you talked about the value of self rewarding  activities. I love that phrase, but that phrase in some points in my life would mean a pint of ice cream, so, and  not that there's anything wrong with the pint of ice cream, right. I know some dancers might hear this kind of  conversation and start thinking about the journaling and finding it a way to find, what they would consider a  safe and comfortable way to obsess and overdo things. How do we find those? How do we find that balance of  motivating ourselves to do stuff, but not too much, and finding self rewarding activities that are gratifying, like  going for a walk, but not, I must walk this speed to keep my heart rate up, to burn this many calories, like how  do we find that balance as dancers?  

00:35:13 

Bonnie Robson 

Yeah. I think that's right on Jennifer. We have to, that the path in tiny units and, reward herself say, yes, I did  that. That is that's good enough. And good enough is the lovely phrase. I don't have to be the best. In fact, if you  strive for being the best, always, you're going to find that it interferes with your performance and you don't do as  well. Even doing your jigsaw puzzle, you don't have to finish it today. You can plan to do a certain amount of  time on your jigsaw puzzle. Everybody seems to have found jigsaw puzzles. I don't know why,  

00:36:03 

Bonnie Robson 

They are very self rewarding when you finish and you get the piece in every time you put the piece in that. I  think that's so write down what you've done. If I finish cleaning that fridge, I write it into my journal and I have  to remember to be sure to tell my friends and family when I'm talking to them, what I did, because they're going  to say, how are you, what are you doing? And I go, Oh, I'm fine. Nothing, That's not true. Look at all I did, but I  need that journal to remind me of all the wonderful things I've done this past week.  

00:36:43 

Jennifer Milner 

Yes. I agree with that. I think taking it in small inconsequential bites is great because if you only write down the  big things, like I walked six miles or any of that, then yeah. It's a really unrealistic place to be. I will say I've  been through a couple of very difficult times in my life when my husband and I went through a hard time with  him being out of work for almost a year and a new baby and all of this. There was a point that we hit that. I said,  I have to write down all the good things that are happening to us right now, because there are so many  wonderful things that are happening that are small. I don't want this hard time to be over. For me to just look  back on this hard time and say, Oh, it was so awful.  

00:37:30 

Jennifer Milner 

There was this, and there's that we have to remember that there was some beauty in them, some really lovely  things too. Maybe it was just a friend surprising us with a meal. For me during this time of isolation, it's super  helpful for me to just focus on the small, good things on the small, lovely things and not try to set my goal, my  sites quite so high. I really, I love that as the self rewarding activities, having a small things, I love that.  

00:38:01 

Bonnie Robson 

Some people are making lists of what they're grateful for and apparently gratitude, or again, writing down your  positive lists, is very helpful. It's been found to be very helpful. You wouldn't think just doing that could be, it's  such a simple thing, but what am I grateful for? Well, I'll tell you, I'm grateful for being able to wear perfume  today. You can't wear perfume and I love perfume, and I've been going around wearing perfume in the house  and smelling ever so nice.  

00:38:39 

Linda Bluestein 

Yeah. That's a good point because we tend to think about the big things. I think that one of the things that I see  with a lot of people is that normally we would think of things that we would be looking forward to as big things  like trips or a performance, or, some, like for us, actually, Jennifer and I are supposed to be right now at this  moment now. Right now we are supposed to be together in Banff. Speaking at a conference and Bonnie, I know,  all about this, you were instrumental in getting this organized. Of course, this is one of the many things that was canceled. I think that what you're saying, Jennifer too is so important because that also helps us to focus on the  little things that we can be looking forward to. Not just on those big things, because I think when Bonnie, you  were talking about people getting on a regular schedule, it can be hard to get out of bed in the morning if you  feel like there's nothing to look forward today.  

00:39:39 

Bonnie Robson 

It's another day. Yeah no, it's not. Today's the day, that I do something special. I'm going to call so-and-so today.  My friend, Martha, and I'm going to have time today to do my special yoga class.  

00:39:58 

Linda Bluestein 

So, so speaking of feeling that really some of the people that are going to be in that really overwhelmed place, I  know you've talked Bonnie about taking your emotional temperature. Would you be able touch on that and help  people to understand when they know that they are, really needing additional help and what kind of resources  they might be looking for either for themselves or for someone they care about.  

00:40:22 

Bonnie Robson 

Thanks. I do want to talk about emotions and overload. When I say take your emotional temperature, I'm saying,  look at how you're feeling. If your temperature is too high, your heart rate is actually up. You're worried you're  impulsive, like going around, but while you're impulsive, you don't have much energy. You're tired. The  interesting thing is you're more clumsy. If your emotions are too low, your movements are slow. You have here  comes that slow. Decision-making Jennifer that you've mentioned, you have a floating sense of your  concentration. You just can't seem to stay at it. One of the dancers I talked to is trying to do her income tax,  which is not a pleasant thing anyway, but she can't sit down for even 10 minutes to keep at it. It's just like, she's,  she can't get it done. It's difficult to focus on a task and again, journaling, using your journal to write down your  feelings and following along, checking out what helps you bring your emotions either up or down, as you need.  

00:41:38 

Bonnie Robson 

What, what changes do you make in your activity? Is, are you hydrated? Are you eating properly? You putting  your exercise in at the right times. It during the day that you're having low emotion just can't get going. I just  don't feel like it or up promotions. I find a good pitch before I can. You could hear in my voice, the different  change, emotions, relate to mood changes. If you think they're out of control, if you're having intrusive thoughts  that you can't control, if you're having impulsive thoughts, you might want to check out how you're coming  across with a friend. If you don't feel comfortable talking to a friend, there are helplines available. I just going to  mention, four of them that I have, there's the befrienders international befrienders and there's the BBC action  line in the UK, in Canada. There's the AFC, which stands for actors fund Canada.  

00:42:52 

Bonnie Robson 

In the States, there's the actor's fund. They have a special dance section. They have trained social workers who  are answering the phones, know about dancers. So I recommend the actors fund. They also, are offering  financial support and, very concrete, suggestions for people like concrete. I mean, they tell you things that you  might want to do. They will also connect you with, helplines in your area. It's so that, if you're in an isolated part  of the country, they'll find what's closest to you. Similarly, if you've got a friend, what if you've got a friend or  family member who's seems to be out of emotional control, check with them, about how they're feeling and  what if you've had a depression before? You know, that's, we've all had depressions. Maybe you've had some  treatment before, maybe you've been over anxious before and had, emotional illness. What can help any, so now  you're worried, right? That, you're worried that it might recur under this terrible stress, write down what  happened, who you saw aware you saw them in a telephone number, if you have it, if you took medication, what  the name of it was, if you can remember, and the dose and what was positive and what was negative about that  medication.  

00:44:27 

Bonnie Robson 

Because if you go to talk to somebody, they're going to want to know what was good for you, any side effects  you had, and any remember to put down any allergies you have, then put that note in a safe place where you can have easy access to it. You can forget about it because if your emotions get out of control and you want to talk  to somebody or see somebody, you can just quickly get that information out and take it with you.  

00:44:56 

Linda Bluestein 

I think that's particularly valuable because then sometimes it helps to just know that you have something  available just in case. Although that's not the same thing as having, the actual prescription, in the States anyway,  I don't know what's happening in Canada, Jennifer and I are both in the US and of course, Bonnie you're in  Canada. I know here we are doing a lot more in terms of telemedicine these days. So, although there are still  access issues, for sure, in some ways I think that they might actually better during this time because of the fact  that a lot of people are offering telemedicine visits. I think it's definitely worthwhile contacting your primary  care provider and seeing if they either would be willing to write you that prescription to have just in case, or, at  least reaching out to them. I know I've talked to people who they haven't even called to see if that person is  doing a telemedicine visits and seeing if they could even, secure a visit so that they can discuss these things.  

00:45:55 

Linda Bluestein 

In a lot of cases, once I encourage them to do it, they say, Oh yeah, I was able to get an appointment. No  problem. 

00:46:01 

Jennifer Milner 

Yeah, even checking in with your counselor, if you had a counselor in the past, just checking in to make sure  they're there, right. Then, it's available, then you say, Oh, well, okay. If I ever need her, I can call. Yeah. That's a  great idea. I love that. Well Bonnie, you have given us, a lot of different things that we can put into our toolkit to  handle with the handle, this time of uncertainty and stress. You've talked about, the small rewards, right? That  we could give ourselves the self rewarding activities. You've talked about the mindful breathing, ways to try to  cope with our dreams and working on our sleep and, kind of getting ourselves into a healthy mindset. I really  like what you just discussed, preparing a CliffsNotes version of what's going on with us mentally, what  prescriptions we might be taking and all of that to have ready for that time when we might, move forward with  talking to a professional of some kind, I wanted to circle back to something that you mentioned earlier when you  talked about developing a safe place, because that was really interesting to me.  

00:47:14 

Jennifer Milner 

I would love for you to just elaborate on that. What do you mean with that? Well, everybody I feel, and I've said  this all my life, everybody should have a safe place. They can go to a safe place, is using imagery.  

00:47:31 

Bonnie Robson 

Dancers to say, Oh, well, I don't use any imagery. I if somebody tells me what to do, I do it like if the balloon on  top of your head, well, I imagine that, but, I have, I'm given those cues, but no, a safe place is somewhere where  you can go to reduce your anxiety. You can go anytime and anywhere I, it takes a while to develop a safe place.  

A safe place is someplace you imagine, and you put yourself in it. I say it takes about a week to learn, to find  your safe place. You think about where would I go, where I would be really safe and it would be wonderful.  And I have no responsibility, no obligation. I can have anything I want there. It could be a place outdoors or  

indoors, but it's my place. It can be any weather. Some people love walking in the rain, their safe place would  definitely have rain.  

00:48:34 

Bonnie Robson 

It can be snowy for all you snowboarders. It could be a wonderful special Hill for you. It could, for most people,  they like the warm sunny, and many people choose a beach, but if you have indoors, what furnishings do you  have? What colors, what sense are you going to bring somebody to your safe place? Where are you going to be  alone with no responsibilities? Are you going to have a pet with you, imagine yourself going there and you can  stay for a short time and come back after you've done a week of this year and making any changes every day  that you want. You can decide if you, if this is your forever safe place or you want to change it and you make  the adjustments, then at the end of the week, you keep that and you can use it, every day, twice a day for short  periods. 

00:49:36 

Bonnie Robson 

This is not meant as someplace where you'd go for a prolonged meditation. Does that, does that ring a bell with  you? Does that make sense where you could go, safely? Yeah, absolutely. That's something that a skill that we  can develop now during this difficult time and then carry it around anytime we want to. It's not, it's not  something that has to be just for extreme times. It's as you said, it can be anytime you need a break, anytime you  want to take that break. I certainly go there just before bed, but just before sleep,  

00:50:12 

Linda Bluestein 

I was thinking the exact same thing that whether a person is in pain or having difficulty falling asleep, or maybe  they're having a procedure done. If you can put yourself mentally in that safe place, you're going to have an  easier time falling asleep. You're going to have less pain, and you're going to get through a procedure more  easily because you are psychologically being able to calm your nervous system in a way that is super beneficial,  as both of you have talked about, earlier with engaging the person, but that nervous system. You can use this to  fall asleep. Also, we all wake up of course, in the middle of the night, from time, and we don't remember it most  of the time because we fall back to sleep quickly enough. If you wake up in the middle of the night, this is a  perfect thing to do to help yourself fall back to sleep.  

00:51:05 

Jennifer Milner 

It is. Yeah. I feel like these are all such great, concrete things that we can do during this time when we feel so  helpless. I really, I really love this list that you've put together. I also want to say, I know that a lot of what, well,  maybe not a lot of it, but a fair amount of what you've covered may seem obvious, like working on his staying  positive and keeping yourself active and go to sleep at the same time and don't drink too much alcohol. Like,  these are all things that we kind of know. There's a difference between knowing them and doing them. I mean,  putting broccoli in your fridge does not make you a healthy eater, throwing that broccoli away every week.  Knowing these things and I'm pretty good. I know. I know what I should be doing to help myself get to sleep,  but I just want to encourage everyone to actually try some of these things, do it as a favor to me.  

00:52:01 

Jennifer Milner 

Like whatever you want to say, but just try some of these things because these are really great tips and I really  appreciate you passing them on Bonnie. Okay.  

00:52:10 

Bonnie Robson 

Well, I I'm so glad you mentioned mindfulness early on and I hope that maybe, we may not have time to go  right through that whole process here, but because really it takes in training, it takes eight weeks, but you  mentioned it and it is a wonderful skill to have and to develop and people who are interested might look up  mindfulness because it's a lovely skill.  

00:52:37 

Linda Bluestein 

Bonnie, I think we should go into mindfulness. I think that is something that a lot of people, when they first try  it with the safe place, when they first try doing a mindfulness meditation, they might have difficulty with it and  think this is not for me, but they're probably the person who needs it the most, I would think. Maybe I, Jennifer,  

you really hit the nail on the head that we know a lot of these things, but we just don't do them. We, we really,  this is such important information that people need. Bonnie, if you would be willing to go into mindfulness,  what people can do, why this is so important. I think this is just information that people really need.  

00:53:18 

Bonnie Robson 

Well, I'm happy to talk about it. Again, reminding you that, you can train and there are lots of trains there, but  see if you can get a practitioner who is a credited, a practitioner, who's taking the course, because my local drug  store, it has an online mindfulness training session. And, and that's great. Remember to really make it effective  and all these things we've been talking about these skills, you're not for everyone. Some of you may say, well,  that didn't help. You know, so, it's fine. Not not, it's not cookie cutter, not everybody is going to find it helpful,  but paying attention in the present moment, being aware and nonjudgmental, curious, and observant. These are all words that refer to mindfulness, started with a Buddhist tradition 2,500 years ago. If somebody has been  doing it for 2,500 years, there must be something in it, like chicken soup.  

00:54:31 

Bonnie Robson 

There must be something good about it. People must get some effects from it. It came back in, really in, 2005  with the work of Jon Kabat Zinn. Again, you can look up, some of the books on mindfulness, if you want to, be  more creative about it's it. You actually create a way of directing your attention internally. At first your mind  goes to every rather line and that's fine. I hear a bell, I smell the flowers. Actually we're starting to have some  flowers now isn't that wonderful. We can see them. I need to bring myself into the present moment. I said  flowers, that was distracting. I need to come back to me, come back into me and just be present inside. If my  mind wanders, then I bring it back. Nonjudgmental. I say, isn't that funny? I was thinking about something else.  

00:55:52 

Bonnie Robson 

I do it the other way. I teach people to practice noticing with their five senses, all the things that around them. I  hear this, I feel this, I see this and just run a dialogue of what your brain is doing, and then let all that go float  away on little tiny purple clubs and bring yourself inside. Just to see if you can stay in with active attention on  what's happening in you. Oh I'm breathing. 

00:56:24 

Jennifer Milner 

I wasn't thinking about that mindfulness practice once you've trained in, it helps with memory retention and  improves your sleep. Just as you said, Jennifer, so it's something, that you might want to consider training in. It  takes about eight weeks to really get the sense of it. You'll have to practice and dancers love to practice  something. You put that in your schedule member of the schedule. You're making 10 minutes of my  mindfulness practice after lunch. Great. Well, it's a, it sounds like such an easy subject, right? Like it's just  mindfulness, it's being present in the moment. As you said, it's very difficult to do. You mentioned it being like  an eight week course that you can take. It is something that will require a fair amount of practice, especially  because, in our society today, it is difficult for us to be present with our phones and our, I I've noticed some of  my dancers when they're taking like a group class, they might have their cell phone off in the corner and they might be checking it in ways that they never used to.  

00:57:30 

Jennifer Milner 

Right. They were in the dance studio. It is difficult for us to be fully present. I think right now, partly because  we feel like we're not fully present, even when we are with someone when we're zooming, where there's that  sense of dissatisfaction, like eating a diet cookie instead of a real cookie, that yes, I'm interacting with you, but  I'm not fully present with you. I'm still distracted with my phone or something because we're not in the same  place. I think mindfulness is incredibly, important right now and germane to what we're going through. Thank  you for that description of it is very powerful if he can, if you can get it.  

00:58:11 

Linda Bluestein 

Maybe that's something that can come out of all of this, because we definitely in our society, we get bored so  easily nowadays. That is our impulse is to pick up our phones. At the same time that we're connecting over our  electronics, maybe we can also set that as a long-term goal that during this time we'd be working towards  looking inside and making sure, as we've been talking about, also with dancers and, that they don't always, they  don't use their voice in their dance. They're not used to speaking up for themselves or necessarily being as tuned  into what they're feeling and said their bodies. Maybe they can view this as a time to really be looking inward  and doing some of the work that will benefit them after they are back in class and back in rehearsal and in  performance and things like that.  

00:59:05 

Jennifer Milner 

So, and, dancers tend to, just in thinking about that task and saying, this is hard to learn and you're going to have  to work at it and be present in the moment, dancers, Oh, on Pat, do that. I wouldn't be able to do that. That's not  true. 

One of the things that we haven't spoken about is getting rid of some of the negative thoughts. Dancing loves  negative thoughts. If I say, tell me some of the things about your body that you like, Oh, well, that's my  shoulders. All right. But my ankles terrible, awful feet. My back, my spine that they've told me if only I had a  decent spine, I could be a real dancer. It's easy and they just turn it on. We're really good at thinking about  negative things, Oh, I use my cell phone too much. You just said this. And, so the first thing is key to  recognizing that you're doing the negative thoughts and counter with positive thoughts. With the things we've  used already, the special breathing, the, and there's another breathing where you breathe in just and make little  constriction in your throat. There's just a little noise as you're breathing in that's exaggerated, but you could hear  it, but just so only you can hear it.  

01:00:30 

Bonnie Robson 

When you breathe out and so the, and that's called breathing and it's like the ocean coming in and going out. If  you can practice that will help you stay a little in the present moment and work on that. And that's a great thing.  Start giving yourself positive thoughts to replace those negative thoughts.  

01:00:54 

Linda Bluestein 

Bonnie, I am so curious about this. I know that we are, our self-talk does tend to be so much more negative than  positive. There a reason for that? And I've heard this, that, we challenging our negative self-talk is very, can be  very beneficial and can really help us, feel better about, we tend to be so hard on ourselves. We say things to  ourselves that we wouldn't say to our friends. Right. Do you have, insight as to why that is that we tend to say  those negative things to ourselves?  

01:01:26 

Bonnie Robson 

No, I don't know why we do that. I've, I've actually found that I've been saying, I don't know a lot these days.  And, and I, I think that's a positive, I can turn that around into a positive. It's a good thing for me that I've  noticed how many times I say, I don't know where we're going. I don't know what's happening. Hey, here's a  positive, I'm, I've, I'm privileged that I can meet with you and talk about these things and share these ideas. Isn't  that great. You can take the negative and turn it into a positive, you can failing that you can brush all the  negative thoughts off your arms and off your legs and off your feet. Just push them down with your hands, get  rid of them, brush them of your head.  

01:02:20 

Jennifer Milner 

You should have seen me just doing that, and stop telling your thoughts to stop it. I don't want to think about  that now and turn it into a positive, I can handle this. I can do this. I've done things before I can do it.  

01:02:39 

Linda Bluestein 

And, and as you're saying this it's reminded me of something that the first time I heard it, that we are not our  thoughts.  

01:02:48 

Jennifer Milner 

The first time that I heard that I thought.  

01:02:51 

Linda Bluestein 

We're, we're not, but that's true, right? I mean, I love how you're describing brushing them off and everything. I  think sometimes we can overly identify with our thoughts and think that, Oh, because I thought that I must  believe it, but sometimes we can think something that we don't, that meant that we don't shouldn't belong to us  and we don't want to belong to us and doesn't need to belong to us. 

01:03:12 

Jennifer Milner 

I just wrote that down. We are not our thoughts, so I can refer to that again another time and keep that positive  thought going.  

01:03:22 

Linda Bluestein 

Cause sometimes I think all of us have a thought that we don't want to have it just spontaneously comes up. We  don't really know how to handle that. Especially as dancers, we tend to be, as we've talked about perfectionistic  and, we wouldn't be dancing if we didn't want to achieve a high level of, perfection and accuracy of movement  

and things because otherwise it's so hard. Why would you do it otherwise, it's too hard to do it. If you didn't  have kind of that mindset anyway.  

01:03:56 

Jennifer Milner 

Right? Yep. That's to remind us when we get those intrusive thoughts, those are the flights you're talking about,  the ones you don't want. Right. Maybe talk to somebody else about it, to share that thought I had the worst  thought today because it feels bad. You don't want to tell people about it, but it might be helpful to share that  thought. Some that personal come back with something that's useful to you. Oh my goodness. No. Sure. I work  with a sports psychologist who works with dancers and I heard her say to a group of dancers, once that you can  have these negative thoughts and just let it drive past you like a car. The car will just drive on by. She said, and  that's fine when you watch the cars go by, it's fine. Recognize the card, knowledge, it, let it go. If you let the car  stop and you get into it and start riding around in that car, that's the difference, habiting it too.  

01:04:58 

Jennifer Milner 

That's something I'll talk to my dancers about. There's, I think as dancers, we're just naturally drawn to the  negative, because that is what shapes us as dancers, critiques make us dancers and give me another correction.  Exactly. When someone is correcting you, it means that you're worth their time valuable.  

01:05:18 

Bonnie Robson 

When someone isn't giving you any comments, then you're not even worth them trying to correct you. We take  those corrections and start to crave what we start to see as negative feedback, but there's a way to take truly  negative feedback, like, I was terrible at that turn and turn it into that. You're giving yourself and turn it into, I  did not make that turn, but I can fix this and see what happens. Constructive criticism is different than negative  thoughts. We have to, as dancers have to learn to see the difference between one as an Avenue for making us a  better dancer and one as an unhealthy habit.  

01:06:00 

Linda Bluestein 

Yeah. That's that's great. Bonnie, if we could wrap up with, one last thing, which is about, Jen's talking about  this idea about this car, I love it. I think that's such a fantastic idea. That's a great image. I think that imagery is  something that, a lot of it, a lot of my Olympic athletes use and it's used in a lot of other venues, but I don't  know how much dancers do that. I think right now, when we are limited in our options of, taking class  performances, we're used to, you're talking about not having the teacher in the room and having each other's  energy, that we definitely, as dancers, we feed off of that. Can you wrap up by telling us about how people  might be able to use imagery to help them during this time?  

01:06:49 

Bonnie Robson 

Yes, because dancers may think as we just said their negative thought mate, well, I don't know how to image. I  don't, I couldn't do that well yet you can, everybody can, I would ask you to go and find your toothbrush. Have  you found your toothbrush? And then I would like you to say what color it is. I bet you knew what the color of  your toothbrush was. That's imagery. Now I want you to think about all the wonderful times you had in dance  

and out of all those wonderful moments member, remember that statement of flow when the dance was just  flowing out of you, when it w when you were your dance and it was you, and it was a magical moment. Can you  image that? Can you image and bring into that image, that moment bring into the sounds that you heard. Was  there music bring into that? Was there, something else you heard of doors people? what could you see, were you in front of a mirror or were you on stage? Could you see lights and what could you feel? Could you feel floor?  Could you feel the, as you turn the wind going round, you could you feel your costume, and the sense, what did  you smell could all bring all your proprioception.  

01:08:16 

Bonnie Robson 

That's that's a hard one for some of the bendy bodies and you're working on it. Where are you in space and bring  all of those sensations in to your image, and then do that. Re-experience that again, feeling just wonderful,  special moment just for you. That's how you use imagery to feel better to prove your self-confidence you've  been there. You've done well, take satisfaction in it.  

01:08:51 

Linda Bluestein 

Beautiful. Yeah. That's fantastic. Wonderful. Well, this has been such a thrill to get to chat with you today,  Bonnie, and with you, Jennifer, it's so great to have the trio back from our presentation in Montreal, that was so  much fun. Bonnie, can you tell us where people can find out, more information about you or connect with you?  

01:09:20 

Bonnie Robson 

Well, we are doing, with the mental health committee of international dance, medicine and science. There are  weekly webinars that are coming up and you can get them through the newsletter of I Adams and Instagram, and  they're on YouTube. Each week a different topic is handled like one week it's topic of emotionality and  emotions and what to expect. Another week was on stress and there's going to be one on sleep. Oh and one, we  didn't talk about today, living in isolation with children, which is a really Good and bad, it's going to be  remembered as the most wonderful time that you and your children were together. Also maybe one of the most  awful times. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Your pets, they can be good at and they can be difficult.  

01:10:19 

Linda Bluestein 

Yeah, definitely. I was talking to a friend the other day who has, relatively small children at home. They're both  now working from home and they have their, I think, five and seven year old at home. It is really all we going to  do now, daddy? Well, not only that the schools are saying, okay, we want you to do all of these things. Plus all  these extra hours a day. Because they said to me, they said, it's not just a matter of having the kids busy and  occupied. They expect all this extra work for you to be doing when normally you were used to shipping them off  to school and obviously you'd have some interaction, but you would be sending them off to school. During the  day you would have that bulk of time. It depends so much on the age of the children.  

01:11:08 

Linda Bluestein 

Different challenges at different ages. For sure. Well, you've been listening to bendy bodies with the  hypermobility MD and today our guest has been Dr. Bonnie Robson psychiatrist and performing arts medicine  specialist. It has been so great to have Jennifer Milner, my guest cohost on the show again today as well. I really  appreciate just so much both of you taking the time to share your knowledge and, had this great conversation.  Thank you very much for inviting us. Of course, anytime. So we'll catch you next time on bendy bodies with  hypermobility MD. Thanks please go to bendy bodies.org for links to all the episodes and to access the show  notes. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share, leave a review and consider rating us five stars. Don't forget to subscribe. You will be notified of all new episodes. Feedback is greatly appreciated and can be emailed to  bendybodiespodcast@gmail.com.  

01:12:07 

Linda Bluestein 

Go to hypermobilitymd.com to sign up for my newsletter. Thank you to Rhett Gil for production and sound  editing to Andrew Savino for composing original music and to Jennifer Arsenalt for designing the bendy bodies  website and cover artwork. This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for medical  advice. Please see your own medical team prior to making any changes to your health care. Thanks for tuning in  and we'll see you next time on bendy bodies with the hypermobility MD.