2. Ensuring Longevity: Screening, Strengthening and Supporting, with Physiotherapist Moira McCormack

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00:00:00 

Dr. Linda Bluestein 

Welcome to bendy bodies with the hypermobility MD. This is your host, Dr. Linda Bloomstein, former ballet  dancer board certified anesthesiologist specialist in treating hyper-mobility disorders and medical director at  Wisconsin integrative pain specialist. Today. Jennifer Milner joins me as a guest cohost. Jennifer is a certified  Pilates trainer specializing in dancers and post-injury recoveries. Our guest today is my room McCormick  physiotherapist for the Royal ballet in London. Mara has been working for many years as a dance specialist,  physiotherapist with all age groups, and now works part-time to allow PhD studies at university college London,  her interests are hypermobility in dance, classical ballet technique and reducing the risk of injury in the  profession. She has also worked in musical theater and contemporary dance, appreciating all dance genres. Mara  was trained at the Royal ballet school, graduating to the Royal ballet company after a dance career, including  national ballet of Canada and London festival ballet.  

00:01:01 

Dr. Linda Bluestein 

She completed teacher training and classical ballet working internationally before embarking on a physiotherapy  career. Mara lectures for the master's in science program in sports medicine, and masters in science program in  performing arts medicine at UCLA,  

00:01:29 

Jennifer Milner 

I would love to know we have seen, just in the recent few years, social media has exploded and as it has kind of  solidified itself in the world, do you see audience expectations changing for a dance aesthetic based just because  of what they're getting from social media?  

00:01:49 

Moira McCormack 

Well, I think the audiences are more demanding now. They do want to see the aesthetic, but they also want to  see, fabulous, new, challenging, difficult choreography, and the choreographers are now delivering. They're  coming up with some of the most exciting, wonderful choreography that when they challenge the dancer with  the dancers, love, they find it interesting and they want to do it. A lot of the time it's very positive because if it's  well-rehearsed, then the dancer goes with it and strengthens for they strengthened in, each of those challenges.  A lot of the time it's, it is very positive, exciting for the dancers, creative for the dancers and exciting for the  audience. A lot of that, I mean, I, I love and celebrate. We just have to be careful that we do still understand that  dancers never say no, they will go. They will never say, Oh, I did so much yesterday. 

00:03:15 

Moira McCormack 

And I'm really quite sore. I think I need to back off a bit today. Well number one, the choreographer, isn't going  to understand that. Right. And, the dancer hasn't been clever enough to say, well, what is my schedule this  week? Where can I really push? Where can I pull back? and know where those very challenging rehearsals are  going to be and save themselves for those and pull back on other things. Don says, we'll never say no, so they'll  go in and go, Oh my God, I will have to do this all over again, just like I did yesterday. I'm not really up to it,  but I'll have to because the demand is there. That's when the strain starts to set in and they haven't managed to  recover from the day before. That may be, is where the choreographers need to understand that if they organize  their rehearsals really well, they can use some dances some days and some dances the other days and balance it  all out because we know that the dancer will not look after themselves.  

00:04:28 

Moira McCormack 

If we want to get that dancer to the first night at their peak, not over their peak, but at their peak and get that the  whole thing to come together for that first night. That's when I think choreographers and those people rehearsing  the dancers, need to really think things through and almost see ahead and protect dancers from, overdoing it.  Yes.  

00:04:59 

Jennifer Milner 

Because as you said, if someone comes in very sore from Tuesday's rehearsal, well, Tuesday's rehearsal was  probably not with the same choreographer that Wednesdays rehearsal will be with. Wednesday's rehearsal  choreographer will say, well, I don't care that you're sore from yesterday. Today's my time with you. I need to  work with you. Institutionally taking a look at the schedule and trying to protect the dancer a little more is  definitely important.  

00:05:23 

Moira McCormack 

Yeah. I mean, it's still hard because it's a creative process and each person taking the particular rehearsal will  need a hundred percent. I think that's also where the artistic management have to understand that maybe a  hundred percent is just too much every single day. There are times when a rehearsal could be marked, you  could, take a breather or when you really have to pull the whole thing together and see what those dancers can  do, then it's time for 150%.  

00:05:59 

Jennifer Milner 

Yes, absolutely.  

00:06:01 

Moira McCormack 

It's either, we say, well, very experienced dancers know how to do this. They're very professional. I didn't  actually see evidence of that. Most devoted and loyal, glances will still go overboard and do too much. Yeah.  

00:06:21 

Jennifer Milner 

Yes, absolutely. Because that's who they are and that's what they want to do. It's hard for them to know how to  hold back and not give everything that they have. Yes.  

00:06:32 

Moira McCormack 

Sometimes. I mean the most experienced professionals will, if there's a, a big urgent change in the costing and  more rehearsals are required. I've had two instances when, where the principal dancer has been working so hard,  they have forgotten to eat and forgotten to hydrate because they've been trying to get it, pull it all together  before the performance, and they've gone on for the performance and suffered really badly. So it happens to the  best.  

00:07:09 

Jennifer Milner

That's comforting to know that it happens to the best of them. I know we started talking about how social media  informed the audience expectations, but it definitely informs the young dancers as well. Overstretching and  hyper splits and incredibly insane positions are all over social media right now. Do you have advice for dancers  who think that overstretching is the path for better flexibility and for a better profile in their professional dance  career?  

00:07:44 

Moira McCormack 

Well, watch social media, see what's going on, be in there, know what every what's being peddled around, but  be extremely critical. If you're unsure of anything, ask your teacher, discuss it with your teacher, what you've  been seeing and ideas that have been promoted on social media. I mean, I, I saw something not so long ago  where there, it was very distressing. A dancer was being pushed into, we know that hyper mobile need hyper  extended knees are difficult to teach, especially with a beautiful foot on the end of a hyper mobile, leg. It's what  lots of dancers want, but it's very difficult to strengthen and very difficult to control and very difficult to teach  and to look at social media and see a professional dancer being pushed into a hyperextended position in her  knee, completely off center. Even the dancer after she was standing in that position for a very long time with a  teacher, she came out of the position and started rubbing her knee because you could see that she was going to  develop anterior impingement to that knee if she was going to stand like that for any length of time at all.  

00:09:08 

Moira McCormack 

Just something like that really does disturb me. It's watching those presentations with a great deal of criticism.  That's all I can say, because, it's uncontrollable, you also asked about audiences wanting the aesthetic or the  regard of a school in some pieces back has always selected their students for those perfect aesthetic proportions.  So that's been going on in history. Yes. I think I'm seeing actually over here in Europe, I'm seeing more  evidence of it that dancers are being selected for those proportions. The very long legs, short trunk, long neck or  head, very Balanchine. Of course. Yes. We're seeing more of it here, but on top of all of that, there's a high  probability. They want the flexibility as well. Yes. You put all of that together along leg, hyperextended knee,  very flexible point position, very flexible spine. You put that picture together and that is one of the most  vulnerable physiques to have to stabilize and strengthen.  

00:10:35 

Moira McCormack 

We're really up against it in our healthcare teams, trying to look after dancers we're up against it because we  have the most vulnerable physiques to deal with and vulnerable the physiques who are being asked to do more  and more challenging, choreography. Yeah.  

00:10:56 

Jennifer Milner 

Yes. The audience requests, what it sees and the choreographers respond and the dancers dig deeper and then it  continues to feed itself. So I, I agree with you completely.  

00:11:09 

Moira McCormack 

I mean, it's not always a bad thing because we are creating, it's a thing of, fantastic choreography is a thing of  beauty and excitement that we do have to make sure that we give them a such a healthy basis from which to  train like that.  

00:11:28 

Jennifer Milner 

Yes, absolutely. I think the healthy basis that we are able to start from now comes from the amount of research  that has come out in the past 10 to 20 years on hypermobility and how much we have moved forward in that in  dance medicine. You are absolutely one of the leading researchers. I think I fan girl over years research articles  when they come out, because I have learned so much from the work that you have done, you do have a nice  

body of research. There anything that has surprised you to come out of your research? Anything that you've seen  to go, Oh, well, that's not what I thought would be the case.  

00:12:08 

Moira McCormack 

Well, I I'm, I am a bit silly, a bit disappointed in how we're not understanding each other. Well, the people in science and in health care and the artistic managements and all the ex dances to become part of the artistic  management, how we still don't, we're not really understanding each other yet. The dancer of course, is the one  that loses out just because of, workload recovery, giving the time to cross train the dancer rather than hours and  hours of rehearsal leading straight into a performance. We know that, we've got to keep on churning out high  level performances, bring in the audiences, make the program throughout year. Interesting novel exploratory  experimental. We know that all has to happen. It's hard to deliver all of that with authors who are, human beings  and cannot function like machines. I think we all understand that we're all under certain stress and strain to  deliver, but we keep trying and we keep trying to understand each other.  

00:13:40 

Jennifer Milner 

That's the best that we can do is to try to keep bringing both sides of the table together because it's the dancer  that both sides are trying to serve. Ultimately at least we hope so. Right. I know that, we have looked a lot at  how to, there's been so much conversation about screening dancers for possibility of injury and screening  dancers with hypermobility and trying to predict who's going to get injured and what we can do. Do you do  regular screening for dancers specifically for hypermobility, or is it just something that you can see eyeball  wise? Do those screening results change the workload that they would put on or perhaps what levels they would  be considered for company-wise? Is there a screening like that goes on?  

00:14:28 

Moira McCormack 

No, we don't necessarily screen, for hypermobility, our dancers come into the company and they are, the new  ones are screens so that we know what past, injuries have happened, because that's one of the main risks of  developing injuries past injury. They're all young. So age is another predictor injury. So we don't have that  problem. I think the ability is, so we take that on board and that's the initial screen when they come into the  company and they are pointed in the direction of what is there to help them. I like to say it's performance  enhancement rather than anything else.  

00:15:13 

Jennifer Milner 

I say the exact same thing. It's going to make you.  

00:15:15 

Moira McCormack 

That's better. We know that if they don't spatter, then they're not going to get some injured. That happens at the  beginning and then we do a yearly screen and our screening has got smaller and more precise is stuff we want to  know. We want to remind them and ourselves of any past injuries. We want to know that because we have a  tradition in dance, we have a high level of foot and ankle injuries. We want to know that their calf stamina is  good enough. We look at that all their, single leg rises to make sure that they can get a certain number done  without fatigue are done scientists in the gym we'll be using. We're very lucky to have, a force plate. They will  be looking at the single leg jump and, making sure that both sides are the same. If they're not, of course, that can  immediately be worked on.  

00:16:21 

Moira McCormack 

They are videoed doing a single knee bend so that we know that the hip is stable and they do a single leg hop.  We look at again, we video the pelvis and the hip to make sure weaknesses aren't creeping in. It's quite a small  screen, but it's a very good way of bringing the dancers in at the beginning of every year and reconnecting with  them, having a chat, knowing what's gone on in the year before and looking at, certain tests. We of course know  our dancers. They come to the company and they stay for a long time. We know our dancers very well, and we  monitor them each year. The same thing goes on at the upper school. They are screened every year, they're at  the school for three years. So the screening is well monitored. From that screen immediately, they are given the  results and they are give them the advice of where they need to go to deal with any deficits that have been  observed.  

00:17:35 

Moira McCormack 

And the dancers are very co-operative. We usually start off at the beginning of every season, in our end of  August with a good positive plan for each dancer. That's fantastic. 

00:17:50 

Jennifer Milner 

It sounds like such a simple, small, as you said, if you've gotten it quite narrowed down to just a few simple  screens that can tell you so much and help the dancer feel like you have their best interest at heart and can start  the season off. Well, and start off healthy and proud to have a plan for the whole year, rather than trying to  address each issue as it comes up.  

00:18:15 

Moira McCormack 

That's great. Yes it's the, it's a good way of us all getting together and they realizing, there's all this at my  fingertips to help me be a better dancer. Yeah.  

00:18:25 

Jennifer Milner 

Yes. We spoke earlier about, hypermobile, young hypermobile dancers and how to work with them and how to,  help them start to take care of themselves. We don't often talk about hypermobile dancers later in their careers.  There any advice you give to hypermobile dancers who have had a successful career and how to try to continue  on later in their career?  

00:18:49 

Moira McCormack 

Oh, yes, because this, it's never too late to build something else into your physique, into your body. It doesn't  matter how old you are. You can get stronger and you can get very subtly stronger in areas that have been a  problem for years, ankle that's been a problem for years. You've started to just accept that there's an  osteochondral defect in there. You know, I saw it on MRI. It's not going to get better. My uncle's a bit sore. I  can't do this. I can't do that. Keep away from this, keep away from that. I can cope, I can just make it work with  the right advice and the right patients. You can put strength into that ankle, as long as you start to put the  strength in it at the right level, which may be very low level, but it's, if you put the strength in and just certain  balanced exercises and then balance exercises in fund do, and then balance exercise on a quarter point, and then  look at again, go back to the technique and look at just how you're closing into fifth.  

00:20:09 

Moira McCormack 

There of rotation that's subtle rotation that's going on in that ankle? And that's, what's actually stopping you  from moving on. I was working with, an older dancer. I I worked from time to time with her and I learned from  her all the time. It's fantastic. You know, we've started to get, ankle. That's been a problem for years. We've  started to get it stronger and she can see the difference and she can feel the difference. She's performing, doing a  lot of performances and starting to feel in control again, not, Oh, well, I just keep away from that. I'll keep away  from that. Now I will manage it's no, I know I can do it now. I know what's going to keep me going and I know  what I'll resort to. The next morning, I'll do my exercises get totally organized before I go into class and then I'll  do my class.  

00:21:06 

Moira McCormack 

Afterwards I'll do more strength stuff, really try to load it a bit more. Into my rehearsal, it's never too late. I do  feel as dancers get older, you need to do more and more of that thing. You knew you had to hold it all together  because every dancer has accumulated a certain number of, I call them scars throughout their career. They're  nothing's a mystery, nothing is a mystery, nothing is insurmountable, nothing is unmanageable. As long as you  understand what's going on and what you can do about it. I, the bad news is older dancers have to work harder  as they get older,  

00:21:57 

Jennifer Milner 

It's so encouraging to hear that it's never too late and for a dancer to know, I have these things, I've lived with  them for so long. I'll just see if I can outlast them until I'm ready to retire, but to know, just do something, start  somewhere, get help with one thing, and then it's this, and then it's fixing your closer to fifth, and then it's  increasing with string. It can feel overwhelming figuring out where to start, but it's, you're absolutely right. It is  never too late to do that. 

00:22:29 

Moira McCormack 

It's so encouraging when you go, Oh, that Relevate is starting to come back. You know, it's.  

00:22:38 

Jennifer Milner 

Encouraging, it's such a beautiful feeling. Yes yes. With, dance teachers, you wrote a fantastic paper. I would  say, guide, managing joint hypermobility, a guide for dance teachers. I, I print it out and hand it to pretty much  every studio I work with because it's so brilliant. Hopefully we'll have a link to that. For dance teachers trying to  figure out how to work with hypermobile dancers and they don't have access to the large body of dance  scientists and advanced medicine specialists. Do you have advice for those teachers who are really wanting to  learn more about how to work with those hypermobile dancers?  

00:23:20 

Moira McCormack 

I do feel that the hyper mobile, the young, it takes a bit longer to understand and get the movement patterns into  their bodies, because I think the proprioception often isn't as accurate as the baby, the rest of the class. They're a  bit of a slow it at strengthening and slower than everyone else. There'll be slower to go on point. They won't be  

able to manage it the way, the stiffer type of ankle can. I think teachers need to be patient and say, it's going to  take longer. And I'm this ones. They're always worth looking after, because, I think as a dance teacher, if you're  putting stability into a hypermobile body, it's going to benefit them in every part of their life. It's, a huge benefit  to give a child an understanding of stability and alignment, and therefore protection of the joints. I would say for  a dance teacher, it's, it is being absolutely demanding of perfect alignment at all times, keeping legs slow and  going for control rather than range going for proximal stability, trunk stability, pelvic stability, and that control  of the hip.  

00:25:04 

Moira McCormack 

If it's ballet, they're, working in, then it's get that control of turnip, do not go for the range and a perfect first or  fifth, even if the child can actually achieve that, they wouldn't be able to achieve it dynamically. They won't be  able, in movement, they won't be able to. Keep it all very conservative and well aligned. Look, after those young  feet, it will pay off in the end. I mean, there's nothing different. We we demand that from every child in a ballet  class, but particularly the hyper mobile ones who lack proprioception and, innate stability. I would go for  understand the body and have, maybe have a good idea of the connective tissue stretchiness of the connective  tissue, but also have a good idea of the morphology of the joints, the shape of the joints. If you can find a higher  mobile physique that has a limited amount of external rotation in the hip, limited turnout in the hip, just because  it's not a shallow joint, it's deep, and it's not that flexible, whereas the rest of the body can be very flexible.  

00:26:32 

Moira McCormack 

You've got to understand that physique, make sure, as much about it as you can. I know that goes for every  physiologic in your class, that it is the hyper mobile ones that tend to fail first, if they're allowed to, work  without perfect control. Right.  

00:26:52 

Jennifer Milner 

Right. To be allowed to kind of go unchecked. I think that, I know that for me personally, I I've seen way more  hypermobile dancers and dancers with connective tissue disorders, like EDS, since I have started working with  pre-professional and adolescent dancers in the professional realm, working with New York city ballet and such,  I just didn't see as many of them. I have noticed that there's more in a younger age, partly because they there's a,  

an attrition, a natural attrition injury wise and aches and pains wise and that kind of thing. Would you agree with  that?  

00:27:30 

Moira McCormack 

Yes, I think I would. It's just that I'm, I don't see as many and you are seeing far more, adolescent dances than I  am. I would definitely go along with that. And that's why I'm not cotton. I don't I can't really comment the way  you can. 

00:27:49 

Jennifer Milner 

Sure. Well you listed some really concrete, points for teachers looking to work with hypermobility, talking  about, keep the leg glow, be able to control your range. Hip proximal stability. Teachers need to understand the  body and understand the connective tissue and the shape of the joints. I loved what you said about how dynamic  achievement is different than a static achievement. Being able to educate the dancers on that in the U S we have  competition schools that I don't think are quite as popular in the UK, but we see a fair amount of schools that see  more of the pictures in their head, try and get them up to these beautiful periods on the dance floor and these  images that will wow. The judges and things that will make the dentist say yes, and give them the trophy and the  awards. A lot of times we see that the more ethical teachers, or maybe the more conservative teachers may not  do as well in the competitions, because they're not putting their kid into those end ranges.  

00:28:54 

Jennifer Milner 

Have you have competition schools in the UK? Is it as big, you see those same kind of issues?  

00:29:02 

Moira McCormack 

Yeah. There are a few competitions, but we, us Brits we're not very competition. So we're not so out there. I  think it's very sad when you do see a wonderful talent being pushed into unrealistic positions and all of that,  because more often than not, you won't be seeing them again because they wear themselves out and they'll fail.  The basis, the really strong basis has not been put in there in the technique to give them a springing point up into  the career. That's, when that basis is not there, we will fail. We do in the Royal ballet company have, and the  school, we have competition winners electing for their prize to come to the Royal ballet school or to come as a,  a young student, join it in the company. They often need a lot of sorting out. They will need to be almost  retaught. That is one of the things that we, the, one of our great strengths in the company and in the school is to  be able to give, a dancer who needs technical, sorting out a one-to-one regular class.  

00:30:36 

Moira McCormack 

The dancer is taken through with a coach and everything. The technique is broken right down and they are  replaced, and it's all explained to them why they're being replaced and, what theory is behind it, so that they can  go back into normal class and use all those theories and understand them that I feel is terribly important. I, I was  chatting with one of the coaches the other day saying I'd love every dancer in the company to go into a one-to one once a month and just do a little revisit too, because everyone has technical problems. Everyone has stuff  that needs sorting out where they have questions about doesn't matter where you are in your career, but just to  go back to the basics and revisit a few things, and that opportunity is there in our company. Anyone can take  them up on it. Mostly that one-to-one is, rehabbing after injury.  

00:31:45 

Jennifer Milner 

Yes. Wouldn't it be great if it happened before injury? Yes. So that there was no injury. Yes yes.  

00:31:52 

Moira McCormack 

Just once a month, let's just have a little technique check.  

00:31:55 

Jennifer Milner 

Yes. Well and it sounds like you're saying, that a lot of times, and there are some lovely competition schools out  there. I don't mean to paint them all with the same brush, but a lot of times schools, whether they're competition  or ballet, cause there's competition in the ballet world as well, might perhaps even unknowingly be sacrificing  technique for the aesthetic for trying to get that certain look and that going back and breaking the technique back  down and getting back to basics may be the key to preventing injury or even coming back from an injury as  well. Is that fair to say? 

00:32:29 

Moira McCormack 

Yes, absolutely. I'm not knocking competition schools or competition either because for a young dancer to get  up on a stage and do really difficult in front of a huge audience, it's a wonderful experience and it's something  you take with you into your career and it gives you that extra confidence to just say, well, I've already done this.  I've already been up there. It's just that we would like to have it. We'd like all that to be done with great care and  understanding absolutely subtlety.  

00:33:06 

Jennifer Milner 

If parents are looking to find a school and they're looking at social media and these teams have won a lot in this  company, or this school has a lot of students in here, they can take some of that into account, but since a lot of  places don't have that access to the dance medicine and dance science theme, like Royal ballet, does, what  advice would you give to parents trying to choose a school? How can they try to find a school that will help  them with that and kind of have that well-roundedness to their approach,  

00:33:35 

Moira McCormack 

A school that does provide a health care of course, is, a school that realizes the importance of school that will  push a certain amount of finance in that direction means it's school. That's actually thought things through in a  very realistic way, because we know that especially in, full-time classical ballet training dancers get injured, it's  it is just part of it. We can talk about prevention, pretty impossible. We can talk about, reduction. That's more  realistic reduction of injury, but dancers will suffer at some point. If the school that your child is electing to go  to does not have a health care department, at least align yourself with a local physiotherapist who comes  recommended, and that you can refer to for advice, health checks and maybe screening. If you, if you think,  yearly, that would be a good idea. At least have, the advice from, recommended professional.  

00:34:53 

Moira McCormack 

Yes.  

00:34:54 

Jennifer Milner 

That's great. That's a great place to start. You have written a book, anatomy, dance technique and injury  prevention, which is now in its fourth edition. Was there anything specific that led you to write this book and  want to get that information out there?  

00:35:09 

Moira McCormack 

Well, first of all, it was Justin House who started this book off. I was involved in the last two additions and,  Justin was a wonderful orthopedic surgeon who worked for the Royal ballet school for many years. I worked  with him for many years. He was actually the doctor who did my first screen before I was accepted into the  world ballet school. He knew me as a student, and then he, knew me as a physiotherapist. Then we worked  together. I loved the idea of technique and injury prevention. It was first of all, written to allow teachers to  access more about injuries and, diagnosis and ways of treating and less. So for students. I think students don't  think about injuries until they've actually experienced injuries. Also for physiotherapists who were working in  dance for the first time, it's a good way to dip in and learn a bit about a technique.  

00:36:22 

Moira McCormack 

It's quite an older book. It's not peer reviewed, all of those things, but it is one of its kind. It will need updating  definitely at some point. It's a useful book and, I loved working on it, with Justin.  

00:36:43 

Jennifer Milner 

That's great. We are grateful for books like that, for sure. Are you, what are you hoping to dig in deeper into  next? You had mentioned, you're doing part-time work with Royal ballet to have more time for research. What  is coming up and what studies do you think are most important for the future? What are you looking to have  happen next in the ballet research world? 

00:37:07 

Moira McCormack 

Well, as with a PhD, you tend to get microscopically involved with things and, or you can't change the world  either. My, what I'm concentrating at the moment on is looking at a screening tests and looking at how reliable  they are, because we all do them, but we don't know how reliable. It's inter rater into tester, reliability or interest  tester, reliability, actually. No. We see so many papers coming out where the test was done. This is what we got.  This was the basis of our research. Really you going, did you actually look at reliability? Can we really trust  you, trust the rest of your research because you didn't look at the reliability. So I'm doing that at the moment. I w  the first part of my research was actually looking at, what, the type of physiques that are being selected into the  profession. That's where I discovered that all the artistic people wanted flexibility and proportion and beautiful  feet, four feet at a time, as well as small head and long neck.  

00:38:32 

Moira McCormack 

My supervisors found very amusing. It's not amusing it's fact. They have, and they go, Oh, you're right. All that  is thetic staff was coming, was being demanded and chosen by our artistic managements and all our  physiotherapists and doctors and strength trainers, and polarities trainers. They were wanting strength, stability,  stamina, and weren't actually seeing along the same signs. That was, it was interesting up to a point. I think we  could have predicted all of that. I am moving through my screening tests to I'd look, I'd like to look at more, to  do with injury prevention in the hypermobile physique. I don't know if it's going to be part of my PhD or  whether it will compost, but we'll see.  

00:39:37 

Dr. Linda Bluestein 

Well, whenever it comes, we will be grateful for it.  

00:39:41 

Moira McCormack 

Definitely.  

00:39:43 

Dr. Linda Bluestein 

There, is there anything else you wanted to add to what we've talked about today and also where can people find  you and find out more about your work?  

00:39:51 

Moira McCormack 

Well, I can always be contacted through Royal ballet company. I think I'm probably contactable through  university college, London on our website of the, where I'm working is the Institute of sport, exercise and health  part of UCL. If anyone has questions I'll, I can do my best.  

00:40:17 

Dr. Linda Bluestein 

That's awesome. Fabulous. Well, this is such a great conversation. I know, I know. I certainly learned a lot, and I know that our listeners will be just thrilled to get the information. Thank you so much, Moira McCormick for  coming on the program today and Jennifer Milner. Thank you so much for being a guest calls today on the  show.  

00:40:41 

Moira McCormack 

Thank you very much, indeed. It's it was a lovely to meet you, Jennifer, which we haven't actually met into, and  I will be meeting in new Orleans one week.  

00:40:53 

Dr. Linda Bluestein 

Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And not having a conference. Yes. Right, right. Most definitely. And it's  been great. Having everybody here today for bendy bodies, with the hypermobility MD today, our guest has  been more of a McCormick physiotherapist for the Royal ballet company in London. Please go to bendy  bodies.org for links to more information. We will have links there to where you can get more information about the different research projects that Moira has done, and, things for dance teachers, for parents, et cetera, and  dancers themselves. Please go to bendy bodies, org for links to all the episodes and to access the show notes. If  you enjoy this podcast, please share, leave a review and consider rating us five stars. Don't forget to subscribe.  You will be notified of all new episodes. Feedback is greatly appreciated and can be emailed to bendy bodies  podcast@gmail.com. Go to hypermobility md.com to sign up for my newsletter. 

00:41:53 

Dr. Linda Bluestein 

My guest coast, Jennifer Milner can be reached@jenniferatjenniferhyphenmilner.com. That's M I L N E R.  Thank you to Rhett Guild for production and sound editing to Andrew Savina for composing our original music  and to Jennifer Arsenalt for designing the bendy body's website and cover artwork. This podcast is for  informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice. Please see your own medical team prior  to making any changes to your health care. Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on bendy bodies  with the hypermobility MD.