29. Capturing Limitless Authenticity with Rachel Neville

Episodes have been transcribed to improve the accessibility of this information. Our best attempts have been made to ensure accuracy,  however, if you discover a possible error please notify us at info@bendybodies.org

00:00:00 

Jen Milner 

Hello, and welcome to bendy bodies with the hypermobility MD, where we explore the intersection of health  and hypermobility for dancers and other artistic athletes. This is Jennifer Milner, and I'm here with co-host Dr.  Linda Bluestein.  

00:00:14 

Linda Bluestein 

Hello everyone. Before we introduce today's guests, we'd like to first remind you about how you can help us  help you. 

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Episodes have been transcribed to improve accessibility of this information. Our best attempts have been made to ensure accuracy,  however, if you discover a possible error please notify us as soon as possible. 

Transcript for Bendy Bodies Podcast, Episode 29: Capturing Limitless Authenticity with Rachel Neville 

00:00:21 

Jen Milner 

First subscribe to the Bendy bodies podcast and leave us a review. This is helpful for raising awareness about  hypermobility and associated disorders. Second, share the bendy bodies podcast with your friends, family, and  providers. We really appreciate you helping us grow our audience in order to make a meaningful difference.  This podcast is for you. Our guest today is Rachel Neville, a New York city-based commercial dance and  movement photographer, who is out to eradicate the starving artists conversation. That's so many dancers and  artists have been taught to believe through the power of marketing education and stunning visuals. She believes  dance companies, choreographers dancers, and artists of all mediums can achieve the success, visibility and  notoriety. They worked so hard for a multi artists to utilize as the medium of photography. Rachel is a former  dancer and teacher, her images are informed as much from her dance history as they are from her inmate  creative vision and her client's visual needs, Rachel.  

00:01:37 

Jen Milner 

Hello and welcome to the bendy bodies.  

00:01:43 

Linda Bluestein 

Yeah, we're super excited. Let's just jump right in. Rachel, can you tell us, how can artists walk that tension of  producing content that interests and excites followers? Well, not encouraging the more extreme or dangerous  trends that we sometimes see on social media?  

00:02:03 

Rachel Neville 

Yeah, that's a loaded question.  

00:02:07 

Jen Milner 

That's a great one too.  

00:02:07 

Rachel Neville 

Start off with because it really comes into parts almost, that, because we naturally and inherently as humans  have a curiosity when we see things that are slightly abnormal. I think that's where the general population, and  dancers specifically tend to get drawn into the massively contorted or hypermobile shots. It as much back then  as you've got, or how high can your legs go? Can they go beyond one, a 180 and it's eye-popping and because  human bodies aren't really meant to do that, right? So it's that surreal effect that I think we all love, combined  with gorgeous lines and geometry that is just it's eye catching. It's really, it's a little hard to get away from that  sometimes because you just, us as a vendors, providers, whatever you want to call us that work in the industry,  we know what goes into that. And we know the dangers behind that.  

00:03:14 

Rachel Neville 

We know that they're not often, technically correct or safe to do. In fact, oftentimes they're really dangerous to  be doing them. In fact, sometimes they're really dangerous to be doing over and over again. They are what gets  you noticed on social media often? and I think that became increasingly prevailing over the last 40 years in  dance. I remember when I was training and Sylvia game was the first one with the perfect 180, and we all went,  Oh my God. 

00:03:56 

Rachel Neville 

Right. You see those shots and you're like, man, I want to look like that. It's also the physical aspect of dance is  one thing, but it's the emotional and the narrative and the energy and the passion and the storytelling that comes  through. I don't want to say that it took a back seat in the last 40 years, but certainly it, kind of does it, I mean,  that's another topic of conversation really. That's where your question comes in, or your original question comes  in to the tune of, where do we, how do we manage that? Do we need to post that? Do we not need to post that?  do we create and cap and cultivate an audience without those eye-popping shots? Can we do them all together or  do we find what is our authentic self? This is where I kind of lead my clients too. 

00:04:50 

Rachel Neville 

I think the most important thing right now, especially in the oversaturated social media markets, is to find your  authentic voice and really be strong and clear in it and find your power in being really who you are and what  you have to offer as a dancer. What is your, what is your it factor? What is your secret sauce? What are you  really passionate about? And I think that goes just as far as an, Oh my God, my hips look like they're going to  pop kind of, what I mean? so I think that can be just as effective. Does it necessarily get you the volume of  followers and likes if that is your goal, if you're is your goal to be an influencer, as opposed to an artist now,  then there's that other side of the conversation. Can you be an influencer, an artist at the same time, which is not  what you're asking me.  

00:05:47 

Rachel Neville 

It depends on what your goals are. It depends on where you want to land and what you're passionate about, for  sure. Sorry. That was a really long roundabout answering that question. I'm not even sure I answered it to be  honest with you.  

00:06:03 

Jen Milner 

Well, but the question is all about that tension. As you said, can you be an influencer and an artist at the same  time? I mean, there, that tension exists every day today, and we see it in every form of social media. It sounds  like you're saying that you do feel that responsibility to offer healthy contributions to the dance world and to not  just to try to find your own way of handling that tension and growing artistically and offering things that fulfill  your creativity while still being a healthy reflection of what is possible.  

00:06:39 

Rachel Neville 

I think that's really necessary. I mean, I think that, you mentioned the term responsibility. Do I feel a sense of  responsibility? I think I do, to a certain extent in that I was a dancer. I was a teacher, I'm a mom now, and there's  so much that I see out there. That is an, things that I would see that I wouldn't necessarily want my kids doing. I  have two girls, what I mean? and that's not to say that it's not right for other people, but there are other choices.  There are other ways of doing things. There are, there are healthful ways of being, there are healthful ways of  shooting. There are healthful, and authentic ways that we can contribute to social media and society and ways  that we can lift up the art of dance rather than bringing it to the circus and the gymnastics, which don't get me  wrong.  

00:07:36 

Rachel Neville 

I like circus gymnastics just as much as the next person for sure. I think knowing what your limits are and  knowing what you want to project and who you're, again, it get that actually comes back to marketing one Oh  one, who are you trying to attract? Who is your target? Right. If you're trying to attract, nine, 10, 11 year olds to  your feed or people who are new to Instagram, to your feed, I have my, I have kids in that age range and they  don't, I don't let them have phones. If that's your goal, then the bendy crazy circus shots might be the thing to  attract them. You have to consider who else you're attracting with those types of shots. If you are a target is to  get into a ballet company and you want to be a principal dancer at such and such or such and such, there's so  much more that goes into that.  

00:08:32 

Rachel Neville 

The, in there other ways of working your marketing to develop your following and your end and the attention of  the people that you want to be looking at your work and what you're putting out there, that would be, again,  coming back to that word, authentic to who you are as a dancer.  

00:08:54 

Jen Milner 

Well, I think that all comes back to, how can you be your authentic self? But as you said earlier, also, what's  your goal here? And that's a conversation I have with my dancers regularly. If they come to me and say, I want  you to help me improve my flexibility, or I want to get my over splits or whatever. I'm like, why, what are we  trying to get out of this? What are the Insta followers going to get you, where are you going to be in your career in 10 years, if you accomplish this? Like, what are we hoping for on this? So did dancers come to you? which  I'm sure they probably do if they come to you with a pose or an action or something that you feel is perhaps not  the healthiest, how do you have that conversation with them and how do you help steer what's going to happen  next in the shoot? 

00:09:43 

Rachel Neville 

Great question. Frequently the way I work is incredibly different than a lot of other photographers. I don't, I very  rarely have dancers that come to me with poses. It's an organic process and because of my background and  history, it's much like you, Jennifer, the, a dancer walks across the room and, almost everything there is to know  about their body before they even, hit an move, the dancers are warming up, and while I'm watching, I know  which foot is better than the other foot. I know by inter by that, I mean, flexibility wise, you can see the muscle  tone. You can see the posture, the way they move. I know, so because of that, when they step out onto my  psych, I already inherently have a sense of their, somewhat of their level, and possibly their strengths and  weaknesses, to a certain extent, not until they really start to move.  

00:10:51 

Rachel Neville 

I really only start working shots that are appropriate for that. I don't tend to go outside of things that, and  sometimes I'm surprised sometimes then they'll throw something out there and like, Whoa, I had no idea, okay,  let's work into that. I don't really usually have conversations into steering people away, unless occasionally with  competition, kids will all have more of that. And then they'll show they'll do something. It becomes, if it's clear  that it's outside of their range, then sometimes we work into it. If it's way outside of their range, then I have  ways and tricks to like distract and get them around into something else that is also just as exciting as what they  were wanting to do. I'm super conscious of that when I teach other photographers, how to shoot dance. I, it's  something that I talk about, how to deviate and do this in case that there's something that's not there.  

00:11:57 

Rachel Neville 

The second part of that conversation is that I build my shoots from the beginning. We never, ever. Guys, can I  say this again? We never ever start with things that are physically not ready for. You have to treat a shoot like a  class. You would never do Grumbach before you do plays ever. You just don't do it. You're not ready for it. It's  not going to be good. Nothing's going to feel right. You're going to rip something, just don't do it. It's the exact  same thing for a shoot where we build slowly two feet on the ground, finding centers, finding, supporting legs,  finding lines, funding, all the bits and pieces of the body as they are in space, because it's very different to be  working in front of a camera than it is in a studio or on a stage. It's a completely different setting.  

00:12:39 

Rachel Neville 

The things that you focus on is not a mirror across from you. It's, there's a camera and there's screens and there's  like stuff you have to get acclimated to this there's lights. There's this there's that it's a totally different  experience. To be able to find your center and find how to work well in front of a camera, which is another thing  takes time, usually takes like half an hour to 45 minutes to sometimes even an hour and a half, depending on the  dancer to really understand the process and sink your teeth into it. At that point, then we have freedom to be able  to work alternate shots, right. Or harder shots as we would suggest. Like I'm never going to throw anybody into  a jump until at least halfway through the shoot ever, like ever it's Rachel rule number 78.  

00:13:30 

Jen Milner 

Well, and I I've had several dancers, do shoots with you as I've mentioned to you before. The feedback that I  consistently, I mean, I get so much great feedback about you, but one of the things they love is that the shoot  starts very slowly. Like they don't walk in and just start doing Arabesque shots, which is what some people do.  They said that the time that you take with them, helping them find which angle is going to work best and which  leotards are the most comfortable and flattering. And, and just the process that you go through before you even  start taking pictures, helps them, has made them feel very comfortable and very like we're in this together, and  now we're ready to invest in the next step. I can see what you're saying with that. Yeah.  

00:14:15 

Rachel Neville 

It's so important to lay that foundation and, the dancers that I shoot regularly, we, they, what I tell my dancers generally speakers, the first shoot is the hardest, because there's so much that they have to learn in order to feel  confidence is to get to the point where they understand a, the process B how to do it, see where their lines are  and how to acclimate in front of the camera. Once that clicks, you can't unclick it. Once that happens, you kind  of it's like, sometimes not a moment, but it's just all of a sudden the dancers are self-correcting. They kind of get  it, the flow, all of a sudden this shots start coming faster and faster. The first time is the hardest taking about,  usually about an hour to an hour and a half to get there the second time.  

00:14:59 

Rachel Neville 

It's they still have to go through that process, but it's less time by the third time we're rocking and rolling by the  fourth time, it's like, you're good to go and you will get good shots. But it does take time. It's like, it's practice.  You have to practice. It's not something that everybody steps in front of a camera and is just automatically  amazing. It doesn't matter how amazing a body looks or how flexible a body is. It has to do with the torque in  each joint. It has to do with the literally the shape of what your leg looks like, not how flexible it is, which angle  it shoots at best. It has to do with, how much twist you have in your spine. It has to do it is your, we can't put  your arms over your head because you're short from here to here.  

00:15:41 

Rachel Neville 

There's not enough space for it, like all kinds of things like that. Once they learn that and once they learn the  systems and what works well and what doesn't work well then, and I think that's foundationally important to our  whole conversation here, because without that dancers tend to throw themselves into things, hoping, praying,  kind of, I think it's going to be good. We wind up with putting dancers in dangerous positions because they don't  know what they're doing. They don't know exactly where to be and how to place themselves and how to prep  and how to set up a shot. That they're doing things over and over again, hoping for a different result, but not  realizing that it's not going to be a good shot because you just didn't turn the right ankle kind of thing. Right.  That's where we wind up ending having dancers do shots over and over again without, and getting more and  more frustrated and more anxiety building up and them going, why can't I get this right? And then we're losing  our technique and then we're running into injuries.  

00:16:42 

Rachel Neville 

The foundational elements of how to shoot well in front of a camera are just as important as the buildup and the  flow of the shoot are just as important as are we using our stomach muscles to strengthen our spine while we are  whacking our leg. It's an all encompassing process that is, I think, incredibly important for dancers to  understand. 

00:17:08 

Linda Bluestein 

And the point about fatigue and injuries. So, so important because that is such a huge risk factor for injury. I  don't know if a lot of people would normally associate that with a potential issue with a photo shoot. I think  that's fantastic that you're bringing that up because your approach is so well thought out. It's so methodical and  really trying to capture, like you said, the essence of the dancer and not just, a few flashy images in terms of a  dancer and their hypermobility and the long lines that can come with that can be a selling point, to companies  and shows, how do you help dancers capture the full extent of their lines, but in a healthy way?  

00:17:56 

Rachel Neville 

Yeah, so we build every shot that we work towards. As I was mentioning earlier, rebuild the entire shoot leading  up to, so there's two components to that. Three really. The one is that if I'm looking for a Seesaw at the fourth or  fifth or six shot in that I have to develop, it's much like, again, coming back to borrow, you have to develop the  supporting leg and you have to develop their understanding of I'm probably going to need to be at this exact  angle in order to achieve a really good shot. I'm building in the concepts that they're going to need to get that  shot, at this stage in the shoot from the very first moment that they're walking in the door really. More  specifically when they step out onto my paper, psych and there, and I'm leading them towards those types of  things that I know that we're going to need.  

00:18:49 

Rachel Neville 

The second part is in every individual shot. This is why when people work with me, we're not working for 20 or 30 or 40 images in a session we're working for a much smaller number of shots, because we really spend a ton  of time on each shot and we build it. By that, I mean, we build out where the supporting leg is. We build out the  working leg, and then when we've got those going, then we fully flush out exactly where the torso needs to be,  what exact arm line needs to because all of this, actually needs to be translate three-dimensionally needs to be  translated into 2d. We have to, manipulate lines to get that by that, I mean, in Arabesque, for example, if this is,  if you can't see me on the screen here in Arabesque, that would be your fingers would be in line with your  shoulder naturally.  

00:19:43 

Rachel Neville 

Oftentimes for shooting, we have to bring the arm across our nose. We have to flatten things and shift for the  perspective of the camera and the medium that it's going to be used on or seen on. By doing that again,  methodically so that we are really making sure that dancers really actualize the, muscle memory that goes into  creating a shot because it's different than it would be on stage. We are able to make sure A, that the technique is  being shown to its best advantage, but B) that they're doing it in a healthful manner, right. I can absolutely see,  they're not going to just Arabesque. The, 40 times later when they're disappointed in the shot and they're not  understanding why they're not getting it. By utilizing the system that I've developed over the last 10 years, we're  placing everything. We're getting everything where it wants to be.  

00:20:36 

Rachel Neville 

We're setting up the shot correctly. I don't let them go. Like they don't even attempt a movement without being  correctly set, thereby safety, maximizing their lines, but also keeping in mind the safety mechanisms that we  need to build into a shot. The third part of that I, and this is the area that I really love is by building, by working  through that system, you're really able to have the dancers feel confident and free to express themselves because  there's not the anxiety of, I'm not going to look good and I'm afraid I'm going not go look at, and I'm afraid I'm  not going to look good. One more time, I'm afraid I'm not going to look good. Right. They know that they're  going to look good and they're, and that they're confident and they're safe, which slows the brain down, which  slows the whole process down by which we can really focus in on the bits and pieces.  

00:21:28 

Rachel Neville 

Their energy is able to sing. We're not doing things in a dangerous way.  

00:21:33 

Jen Milner 

I love that such a big part of that is making them feel safe and confident because all physical visual artists,  whether it's dancers, skaters, gymnast's circus artists, we are constantly judged for the way that we look and it's  so difficult to separate out us, the commodity from us, the human and putting ourselves in front of a camera  lens. I've said so many times if YouTube had been around when I was dancing, I think I would have retired way  sooner because I think that I was a much better dancer than I probably was, but there's not a lot of video proof.  So I'm safe. I'm just, there's a different image in your head of what is actually going to be happening. Someone  walks into your studio, we are putting out without words, what we're trying to do. Yet most of our training  doesn't include teaching us how to do anything other than the technical aspect of it.  

00:22:30 

Jen Milner 

How do you help these artists express themselves, like find that place where they can express who they are and  their emotional in ourself and in these photographs,  

00:22:43 

Rachel Neville 

I love that question because the focus as a pre-professional dancers, specifically, probably in other genres of  movement as well, becomes so focused on the physical as it needs to be. Because there's, especially nowadays  with the huge volume and range of what dancers are expected to master before their company ready. I mean, it's  well beyond what it was when I was dancing. I'm sure 10 years from now, we're going to be flabbergasted one  more time. Because it's so it's like keeps growing. There's just not enough studio time. There's not enough hours  in the day. We're still, we have all these increased expectations, but yet we're still limited with the 24 hour a day,  356 days of year. What tends to get put on the wayside is oftentimes not always, but oftentimes is the artistic  vision. It is the narrative. It is the, why are we actually doing what we're doing? How we communicating with the audience, what is, what are we here to really achieve? sometimes it's incredibly difficult to get dancers to  break out of that, right? And the younger they are, the more difficult it is because they're still in the formative  stages. 

00:24:01 

Rachel Neville 

My body is my body. It's my body. Sometimes it's, Oh, do you want me to smile or not smile? That's about the  extent that you get, for the younger ones, for the four kids. This is my, a large part of my demographic is 16 to  24 year olds. You get to that stage. I think the most important thing is to have dancers know that you have their  

back, that you're not going to let them have shots that do not look good, that they do not look as technically  strong as they absolutely can possibly look. That's something that I instill in the dancers from the minute they  come in the door at some point in the first little while as I'm teaching, we always start with headshots first, so I  can teach them how to use their face and how we communicate about face. That they understand the tiny little  differences in the, in range, like the difference between a micro millimeter, one side or another, it changes the  shape of your nose.  

00:24:58 

Rachel Neville 

We talk about these things so that these start to understand the process and they start to it's like that anxiety of, I  just want to look good. I'm afraid I'm not going to look good, starts to calm down. When they are able to see the  process by which we get the shots and we get a few that they're like, wow, I didn't think I could look like that.  They start to understand that interest in the process. When they understand and trust in the process and or  interest in me or, and or interest in Andrew, then there is that the confidence naturally comes as we build out  good shots. When they understand, and it really only happens at this point when they understand that they really  are going to look good, that they're able, again, it's that anxiety level, that psychological factor comes down so  that we're able to push through energy.  

00:25:50 

Rachel Neville 

That is speaking to us more. We're able to really do silly things. I mean, it's a little silly, but say like bubbles,  and then you get them to like brighten up, right? Or in your voice and inflection to try to push energy back and  forth. Or it's like, now we're talking about that. We're using adjectives to bring through the energy and then  we're keeping their target audience in mind. Do we need some that are happy? Do we need some that are sad?  Do we need moody? Do we need this? Do we need neutral? Do we? And then that conversation can flow  through, but you can't really get there until you calm the psyche down in relationship to, I'm afraid. I'm not  going to look up. Nothing happens until you get that.  

00:26:35 

Jen Milner 

I that's beautiful that's the place that it has to start because you're absolutely right. It doesn't matter. A point of  your feet are on top of your leg, or if you can't surrender that fear and surrender that control to the person behind  the camera. So, so are there other things that you wish, like before a dancer comes in to do a shoot with you?  What do you, what would you like them to know? What do you wish that they knew other than you're not going  to make them look bad?  

00:27:05 

Rachel Neville 

I think that the process takes time and it's different for everyone. I think that's one thing that I wish all dancers  would understand that they, come in with, sometimes thinking that depending on their level and their  background and their strength and flexibility and all those kinds of things, I think, because I would have each  one of those different segments know something different. However, I think that my hope is that they come in  understanding that it's a process and that it takes of time to understand and get into it and have patience with  themselves because so many dancers come to this and think, Oh, I did a shoot outside and I threw up a leg and  an oh yeah, I can do this. Yeah. It's not the same in a studio. You have nothing to distract from every last little  bit of technique that you've got and different cameras in different lenses, in different locations, in different this  and different, that's really different when you're this big in a shot or when you're like the plot.  

00:28:13 

Rachel Neville 

Right. So, to just have patience and understand that it takes time to build your repertoire, to build your knowledge base, to build your expectations and understanding of what's about to happen. I wish that dancers  would know more, honestly, this is really a big wish for me that they would know more about marketing and  how that first piece of the puzzle that were talking about works because, what are your expectations? What are  you shooting? Why are you shooting it? If it's to further your career, that's one thing if it's for you to pass around  with your friends and just have fun, that's a different thing. If it's for your mom's book on the table, or, that, and  that's, again, something different and each one of those different, goals requires a different way of working,  right? So, I think that's important to know. Lastly, I think I really wish dancers would come in and just be kind  on themselves, be gracious, and understand that we, what makes a great shot is so often not just your technique,  it's like all the power and the energy and the expression and the authentic you, and how to get there.  

00:29:41 

Rachel Neville 

As were mentioning before is sometimes a little foreign to the dancers. Again, to be kind and gracious of  yourself and take, pick working with photographers that will allow that to happen. That sounded a little strange,  but what I mean?  

00:29:58 

Linda Bluestein 

And, and dancers often feel voiceless. Can you suggest some ways that a dancer can communicate with the  photographer during a shoot, express uncertainty or say no to a certain pose or movement?  

00:30:14 

Rachel Neville 

That's a new concept for me, the dancers often feel voiceless. I mean, I don't find that with my dancers. It is  because I encourage them to speak and speak with me regularly and constantly from the beginning. I also know  that there are a lot of dancers that work with photographers who are not former dancers, and are not teachers  and, or weren't trained by me. The process is different in that I'm imagining, I imagine that's what you're really  asking me, how we handle that. Right. I think having as much clear and concise communication before the shoot  happens is the best way to go, knowing exactly what the expectations are. I mean, if there are different types of  shoots, right? If you're doing a test shoot with a photographer, versus if you are paying for their services, versus  if a photographer approached you and is going to pay you, these are all different circumstances, but the more  you can communicate your expectations and understand the photographer's expectations down to a pretty  granular level, you guys, that means what are, what kind of poses do you want?  

00:31:29 

Rachel Neville 

What type of styling do you want? Where are we going to be? How long are we going to be shooting for? What  do you expect out of the shot who, how many images will I receive? What are my expectations of what you will  do with the images afterwards, that's often a sticking point that you should know about in advance of shooting,  because co photographers own copyright. So, you want to know where, and what is being happening with those  images. One thing that is coming up now with the S and P clients that we have out in the world that I've trained  them to shoot, and now they're doing shoots and getting paid for it. Some of the things that I'm hearing coming  back from them is, being very specific about timelines. It not just, I'm going to have access to 20 images or five  images or a hundred images or whatever it is at the end of the shoot, but by when can I expect those, because if  that's part of your agreement and then you have to wait six months or a year to have those come in, that's a little,  back and forth.  

00:32:37 

Rachel Neville 

Lastly, I would absolutely sure there's more than this. This is just off the top of my head, you guys.  

00:32:43 

Rachel Neville 

I think, knowing, and asking what their retouching policy is important because there is a polar proliferation.  Proliferation of overly liquified shots going around right now, if you're not familiar with what that is, that's  there, it's a Photoshop, tool that has now been translated into apps that you can manipulate, what you look like  on your phone, make your legs look skinnier, or change the shape of your feet, all that kind of thing. You start to  see that out there. You start to see photographers who are very used to a particular genre of women changing  women's body shapes into, different shapes kind of thing. What are their policies on that? What can you expect coming out of that? What are your expectations? What do you want? What's, ethical, that's another conversation,  All of those types of things.  

00:33:53 

Rachel Neville 

I would also kind of circle that whole conversation back around to what we've been actually talking about here. I  would also, if it's a new, a photographer to dance, that the girls start to be very specific about their needs in  terms of safety. If they're hanging out, shot outside, make sure that it's safe, make sure that, you're not being put  into precarious positions that could potentially end your career or end your training for six months. Right? So  you, stand on a ledge, that's two feet off the ground, and maybe you feel comfortable because it's a foot wide,  but you whack a leg and then you fall and down, you come and there goes your ankle and you're out for six  months. Was that shot worth it? Right. I don't know about that. Or are you shooting in a location where the  ground is not stable or there's not, a really serviceable platform to be able to, it's just not safe.  

00:34:55 

Rachel Neville 

Again, you pull, you don't think too much of it. You're trying, you really want that shot. It's going to be really  cool. Your photographer says, Oh my God, it's going to be really cool. Let's just keep going two more times.  Right. And then all of a sudden, right. You're out for two weeks, you're out for a month. Was it worth it? Right.  I think safety first and being able to communicate with your photographer right away about those types of  expectations, I would do them in advance. Right. Don't be shooting when you're too cold. We all know what that  does to our muscles. If it's too cold outside, don't do it. You guys, it's not worth it. Right. I think if you can  communicate the process by which your expectation you're to work or ask the photographer, like, how do you  get a shot? How many times, it comes back to the whole conversation around how many times am I going to  need to do this in order for that photographer to get it? Are there alternate ways of working to make sure,  especially if you're working with a photographer, that's new to dance, and they're not sure of their timing on this,  and you find yourself walking that leg a hundred times to get them to go.  

00:36:00 

Rachel Neville 

Maybe there's alternate ways to communicate, to make sure that doesn't happen. I, train my photographers to  watch and see so that you don't have to use counts, but counts might be a way to do that if they're not familiar.  Make sure that you stipulate, like I really can only do this three more times. I really can only do this two more  times and be really comfortable and confident in that. In fact, I asked the dancers when we're doing something  really hard, how many more do you have in you? You have two great, we're going to do one, right? Because it's  like, you just, you can't take those chances.  

00:36:37 

Linda Bluestein 

And this is such great information. It's such incredibly important information, because like you're saying, these  are young dancers in many cases that if they do get an injury, it can be life altering or career altering. In the heat  of the moment, there's so much pressure to, they want to please the photographer. They want to try to get that  image. They're not used to, they're not used to saying no to choreographers of course, or their teachers. So, I  think it's such an important conversation to have in advance when they can really be thinking this through  instead of, going into it less prepared and then having to make those decisions on the spot and make, maybe  making the decision that's wrong for their body, but better for the photographer potentially.  

00:37:28 

Rachel Neville 

I mean, I mean, listen, you guys, I pushed my dancers hard. I pushed them hard. They're sore after. I'm also a  former teacher and I know how to work bodies. I know how, like, at what level I know what I'm looking for  when I see the fatigue started, I'm like, that's it you're done. Oh, no, I can do one more note. You're done type of  thing. Dancers are not always aware of that. They're on an adrenaline high while we're shooting. They're  excited. Oh my God, this is so much fun. Look at that shot. It's going to be so great, right?. I see the dancers  bodies dying before they can feel it. That adrenaline high we'll have them push through that. So, you asked me a  little while ago, what do you wish that they would know? You have to listen to your body, you, and you need to  be really mindful. 

00:38:19 

Rachel Neville 

And when it's done. Like when you can't do any more because you need to be in class tomorrow kind of thing. If  you're working with the, photographer's not that, savvy for lack of a way to say it, then being hyper aware of  that, bring a friend. I mean, if you're working with a photographer that I never, that's one of the things in my  SMP program, you guys, you have to go with a friend. You never go alone ever. I don't care how old you are.  You don't, unless you've worked with that photographer like three, four, five times, and you feel comfortable,  you just, as us as females, we just like, it's Rachel's right. Just, you don't go alone. That gives you a second set of  eyes, right? It helps you to have somebody else to gauge and say like, okay, you've done that 40 times.  

00:39:09 

Rachel Neville 

Like, is it really like, are, is it getting any better or is it not getting better? 

00:39:15 

Jen Milner 

I'm so glad you said that because I do go along with some of my dancers on their photo shoots. Because even if  it's a dance photographer, they may not always have the poses in mind. And, and some, a lot of times, if I go  with them, they're not their photography, specialty is not dance. They may not have great poses in mind, or it  may not be practical for my dancer because I know her body so well, or the photographer will start taking  picture. I'll say, listen, if we can just move this it's going to look. I very much enjoy being that extra set of eyes  on the shoot, because it is important to have somebody and you've got a whole team and your eye is amazing.  Watching out for the dancer and being able to see the things like the fatigue setting in, or this is not a great shot  for this dancer or any of those things.  

00:40:07 

Jen Milner 

So that's great that you said that.  

00:40:09 

Rachel Neville 

I have two sheets for the photographers that I trained. If you're, if you've got wide shoulders, this, if you've got  short hair, this, if you've got short, a short tibia or short trip femur, like it's like the, so other photographers,  oftentimes you're absolutely right. Come to the shoot with, I'd like to do this. I'd like to do this. And it's just not  physically right. For that particular dancer. The reason why I'm pointing that particular thing out is because  dancers are such people pleasers, they'll keep trying and keep trying. The dancer needs to know, or it would be  really helpful for them to know the, what really shines on their body as well as what is not the best, and to  refocus the photographers on what really looks good on them, again, that takes time and training. You need to  be able to work with somebody so that, where your strengths and weaknesses are and what are your, eventually  over time after many shoots, there are many dancers that weren't trained into shooting.  

00:41:13 

Rachel Neville 

Just happened to know, I, this foot looks better like this, like those types of things. Right. So, but most  photographers don't know that, and we'll continue to try to work to, and push you to it. Or maybe they won't  push you, but you will push yourself to keep trying to achieve a shot. That really, if you just don't have that  lateral twist in the spine, the quasi attitude is just like, you can try to minimize a bit, like not going to be there to  the way you would like it to be there. Do what I mean? So having that knowledge in yourself I think is really  important. Yeah.  

00:41:51 

Linda Bluestein 

Yeah. I imagine sometimes people have different expectations and they think that, they see the beautiful, certain  shot. Like you're saying like the quasi attitude, Oh, I want, I really want that. Like you said, it's not the right fit  for them. If a dancer can't come to you, how can, the dancer best find a good photographer that will listen to her  and bring out the best in her artistry? 

00:42:16 

Rachel Neville 

Great question. How do you find somebody like that? I've trained a lot of photographers throughout the United  States now. So, and as we redesign our website, we will have a listing of who those are and where they are,  coming to you shortly. We will have that list for you shortly. I think asking, what would be really helpful for us  to, we develop a set of questions for dancers and that you could share on your website or blog post or wherever  the, this podcast is hosted. That would be fabulous that you should be asking before you sign on with that. Or  depending on the answers that you get, how to work with that particular person. Again, it depends on your target  and, not your target necessarily, but your, intention behind the shoot, right? Like, if it's what I call a candy  shoot, right? You just want some pretty images for Instagram and it's a celebratory, I made it through the air.  

00:43:31 

Rachel Neville 

Yay. That's one thing. You, the level of what you're dealing with may or may not necessarily need to be precise.  What I mean? versus if, listen, if you've just spent $200,000 in 10 years of your life training for this and, that's  it, now you find somebody good now, that's where we get about 70% of our clients fly into New York to work  with us because it's like, that's, you're putting your entire career on the line. Because you have to look really  good. That's a sea of 5,000 dancers for 20 spots. What I mean? Like the artistic directors and ballet masters are  weeding through 700 applicants just to get into the audition, just to get seen. That doesn't even get you into the  con that's just for trainee. Like, what I mean? The competition is fierce. That's where you don't, that's where you  don't skimp out.  

00:44:28 

Rachel Neville 

That's where you do it, you do it right. So, you, those questions will be really helpful, but there's that like you do  your research and choose appropriately.  

00:44:38 

Jen Milner 

Well, and we will put those questions in our notes for the, in the liner notes for the podcast and make sure that we get them up elsewhere, because that will be super helpful for us to be able to share with our dancers. And I  agree with you. It's so important. I tell all my dancers when they're moving from pre-professional to trainee or to  studio company or whatever that next level is, they're trying to do. I always honestly say, go get your head shots,  your best and your, personal dance shot with Rachel, because I know company directors look at the photos and I  know that they can recognize your photos. I know that they can recognize really good photographers and say,  Oh, this person is serious. This person is working hard. They are investing. First of all, you want a great  headshot. You want a great aerobatic shot, but then that other shot, which is the, you shot, you need somebody  that's going to help get all of that across in one shot.  

00:45:31 

Jen Milner 

You have to have somebody good to get that across. So I agree with you wholeheartedly. That's the point where  you should be investing in your career. Is there any, go ahead.  

00:45:43 

Rachel Neville 

The artistic dressers start to know, it's added bonus for them. If they've got people working for them that know  how to shoot, it makes a great marketing images. It sells more tickets, unfortunately it's the other side of the  beast. If you have a certain number of following and you can be a draw, we don't like to talk about it, but it's a  thing, I mean, you're more attractive. If you have subsets of skills as an employer at myself being an employer,  people who come to me and they have subsets of alternate skills that we can utilize in different places of the  business. It's very attractive. It's very attractive. So, so I do agree. It's an investment that you con you it's an  investment in your career, but it's also an investment in having them understand that you take it seriously and  that you're, you take this other side of the business just as seriously as you do, how much turnout you have.  

00:46:46 

Jen Milner 

Absolutely. Okay. Well, is there anything that we have not covered that you wanted to make sure that you talked  about today? 

00:46:53 

Rachel Neville 

I wanted to talk about the need for a solid understanding of what your core does in a photo shoot, ,  

00:47:12 

Jen Milner 

This will be a whole other podcast. I mean, come on, let's do it right. Yes, please.  

00:47:18 

Rachel Neville 

That's something that's, I mean, so many dancers are so used to throwing legs around and tossing into this and  tossing into that. Let me just do this and let me just do that. Your ballet teachers talk about this, all of your  contemporary teachers talk about this, but if your core is not strong to protect in this, you don't have the ability  to use your upper body in an expressive manner, because everything is chunked in height. It's like, to try to get a  shot. The secondary part of that is that your three parts really your lines don't look as good when your upper  body is tense. Nor can you really lengthen through your legs, to the length that they really need to be in a  photograph. If everything is tense. If I could say one thing about preparing for a shoot, it would not be to diet  down.  

00:48:17 

Rachel Neville 

You guys, it would not be to diet down. It would be to say, I've got a shoot coming up. I'm going to put extra  effort into my core, right? From the pelvic, what do you call it? Pelvic floor on the floor, right. All the way up  to, between the spine, between the shoulder blades, like that whole length in there, that's what you need to focus  on before you come in. Because without that, we can't lengthen. It's so important and healthy for sure.  

00:48:52 

Jen Milner 

Right. I would add to that, so many people think working your core is like doing crunches and it's not, it just  makes you tighter and more restricted. Not just working your core, but understanding you can exercise the  muscles, but if you don't figure out how to use them in the class and in the movement, it's pointless. When  people say they want a higher developpe, I say, well, what is your core look like? Because I don't care how high  you can lift your leg. We have to work on stabilizing your pelvis before your leg can go higher. So, yes. It's  about if you've got a six pack that I can see, well, what's it doing? Right. It's, it's crossing that line between the  gym workout or your crunches in your room, into the studio, and then into a performance situation, like the  photography studio, because, and for me, I talk about it as your center and how you can kind of collect your  center and let your body move around it and have this energy that you move around.  

00:49:54 

Jen Milner 

Finding that fluidity of movement through the stability of that center. That's the tricky part. Dancers are like, I  need to exercise this muscle. Okay. That it's that more complex transition into actually being able to use it  through a movement, got a reason.  

00:50:11 

Rachel Neville 

Nobody talks about that. That is the key. How many times have you shot an Arabesque where they were like, I  just need to pull up my stomach. I'm like, well, can we talk about that? Because if you're pending in the opposite  direction, how like, yes, we want to be held and strong, but like second, like it's like oxymoronic that inhibits the  motion of movement, but so how do we lengthen and strengthen and hold. Whilst being in motion, that is a  conversation that I don't hear often enough. I would love to. I would, if you haven't already podcast on that, I  would love you to broadcast it to everybody that comes.  

00:50:56 

Jen Milner 

Well, an Arabesque is the same way. If people want to hire our best, the first thing we have to do is figure out  how to support from the front in a fluid way. How do you use your leg rather than your back to start to  maximize what you're trying to get out of it and not just crank into your lower back. Right. Yes, we can talk  about this for another two hours. Like you said, this podcast for another day, and that has given us a great idea. 

00:51:21 

Linda Bluestein 

Do we need to talk about that because the other, I just want to add really quickly that the more hypermobile you  are, the stronger that you need, your true core muscles to be not like you said, not your six pack, but, and I think  there's a lot of misconception that because people can do all kinds of other things that therefore they must have a  

strong core. I have watched lots and lots of dancers in class and rehearsal and worked with that where you can  tell that they're not able to stabilize their spine. Like you said, Jen, and that fluid way that you need to be able to,  but so that you're, working with your hypermobility and not just relying on it? 

00:52:08 

Rachel Neville 

I mean, yeah, going back 40 years when I was training. Hi, I am hyper mobile. I'm a bendy girl. We're going to  be, as I actually used the term Gumby in my, and we did tons of cross training and hardcore strengthening, but  then it comes time to put that in action. It's not the conversation, it never was the conversation. It was, you need  

to do more sit ups, you need to do more core work. And that's one thing. If you can't transition that into what  we're just talking about here, I mean that, and that's where the injury prevention right there, and you get better  and stronger and are more fluid and expressive dancer. Right? That's, it's just so hard. It's so hard to, from my  perspective of, to thinking in my body and being in my body like how to work with that.  

00:53:05 

Rachel Neville 

So I really would encourage you. I really want that.  

00:53:12 

Jen Milner 

We may put that put up a workshop for that instead for bendy bodies, that might be a great idea. We can  demonstrate on video and all of that stuff that Is expiring us because what's the point, if you get good, lower abs,  but you can't apply it to those devil pays at the start of white Swan, what's the point, right? Why have you have  those lower apps except to say, I've got great lower abs, well, this has been fantastic. Where can people find  you?  

00:53:46 

Rachel Neville 

Where can people find me here? I'm in New York. 

00:53:49 

Jen Milner 

No,  

00:53:53 

Rachel Neville 

We're at Rachelneville.com. We're on Instagram, no longer at Rachel Neville photo that got, our Instagram feed,  which, was a strong source of where people were easy to enable to find us, was hacked and disappeared last  month. We're now over at RachelNevillestudios. My personal is Rachel_Neville. I'm on Instagram, we're on  clubhouse. We're on Facebook, but nobody's really on Facebook anymore. Yeah, we're kind of everywhere.  

00:54:29 

Jen Milner 

We're kind of everywhere. Yeah. Excellent.  

00:54:34 

Rachel Neville 

Perfect. Thank you so much for having me. You guys, this was actually incredibly fun and I just can't wait to  have that training be available to dancing.  

00:54:45 

Jen Milner 

Next week. Like people need this. People need, listen, when my dancers schedule a time with you in New York,  when they set up some time to fly up to meet you, I'm like, how stupid would it be for me to fly and come along? Just so I can go to the photo shoot with you. They're like do it. Which of course I never do, but I'm  always wanting to sit in one of our shots.  

00:55:05 

Rachel Neville 

Now because of the, developed in our studio over the last year, I had a really couple of large commercial shoots  last year. The, we, in order to accommodate clients that were in different parts of the world that couldn't fly in  for the shoot as they normally would do we have a whole system for doing things remote. So we often do shoots  via zoom. I don't shoot via sickle. There are other people that do that, but like you having you be a fly on the  wall while we're shooting and we can absolutely.  

00:55:42 

Jen Milner 

Gosh, I want to do that. I really want to fly there and be there, but in the meantime, yeah, that would be  amazing. That's so cool. Yeah. I would love to do that. We can absolutely hook you up with that. Awesome. It'd  be fair. You have been listening to bendy bodies with the hypermobility MD today. We have been speaking with  Rachel Neville, New York city based commercial dance and movement photographer. Rachel, thank you so  much for taking the time to come on bendy bodies and for sharing your wisdom with us. We really appreciate it  any time. Thanks so much for having me. You guys, this is great. We really enjoyed it.  

00:56:24 

Linda Bluestein 

Thank you for joining us for this episode of bendy bodies with hypermobility MD, where we explore the  intersection of health and hypermobility for dancers and other artistic athletes. Please leave us a review on your  favorite podcast player. Remember to subscribe so you won't miss future episodes. Be sure to subscribe to the  bendy bodies, YouTube channel as well. Thank you for helping us spread the word about hypermobility and  associated conditions. Visit our website, www.bendybodies.org. For more information, for a limited time, you  could win an autographed copy of the popular textbook disjointed navigating the diagnosis and management of  hypermobile, Ehlers Danlos syndrome and hypermobility spectrum disorders just by sharing what you love  about the bendy bodies podcast on Instagram, tag us at bendy underscore bodies and on Facebook at bendy  bodies podcast. The thoughts and opinions expressed on this podcast are solely of the co-hosts and their guests.  They do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of any organization.  

00:57:30 

Linda Bluestein 

The thoughts and opinions do not constitute medical advice and should not be used in any legal capacity  whatsoever. This podcast is intended for general education only and does not constitute medical advice. Your  own individual situation may vary, do not make any changes without first seeking your own individual care  from your physician. We'll catch you next time on the bendy bodies podcast.