6. Minding the Mental Health Gap with Kathleen McGuire Gaines

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00:00:00 

Linda Bluestein 

Hello, and welcome to Bendy bodies. This is your host, Dr. Linda Bluestein. Here's my guest cohost Jennifer  Miller. For another episode of this dance specific series. Today, we are so fortunate to be chatting with former  dancer writer and fundraiser. Kathleen McGuire Gaines, Kathleen trained at the Pittsburgh ballet theater school,  the San Francisco ballet school, the school of American ballet and that Chautauqua festival program. Over the  last 10 years, Kathleen has written more than 100 articles. I'm dance for dance magazine point dance, spirit and  dance teacher magazines. As a result, she has had the opportunity to conduct nearly 1000 interviews with  dancers, teachers, and dance medicine professionals. In 2014, she was named a contributing writer to dance  magazine. Kathleen is also a dedicated nonprofit professional development coordinator and is a member of the  development committee for the international association of dance medicine and science minding the gap was  founded as a reaction to the outpouring of support Kathleen received after she posted the article.  

00:01:05 

Linda Bluestein 

Why are we still so bad at addressing dancers mental health on the dance magazine website in the summer of  2017, her ambition is to enact a movement which results in mental health being regarded with the same  seriousness as physical health in dance culture. She is also one of the millions of people who has battled  depression, Kathleen. Hello, and welcome to bendy bodie. And hello, Jennifer. Hello. Great to have both of you  here. Kathleen, you and I met at the PMLA conference at UCLA last summer that the performing arts medicine  association, and I was so incredibly moved by your presentation. I thought this is somebody that I really want to get to know better. It's so great to have this opportunity to learn more about the fabulous work that you're doing.  You started out as a dancer yourself. At what point did you become aware of mental health problems in the  dance world?  

00:02:27 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Much later, I, I don't think it ever occurred to me to consider mental health issues as a dancer. I was dancing in,  late nineties, early aughts, I guess they're called, was when I was kind of at the top of my pre-professional  training and, culture in general around mental health has changed quite a bit since. It's beginning to change in  the dance world, but, I went through my first major depression when I was 17 years old, following my first  major injury, which was, stress fracture tonight, second metatarsal. I didn't know that I was depressed know,  like, I didn't know that anything that I was feeling with anything other than weakness. Right. Like I thought that  I just wasn't, I didn't have what it takes. Right. Like I wasn't tough enough. Right. Like, and there were people  that actually kind of said that to me, it was like, you're a beautiful dancer, but you might not just, you might just  not have what it takes mentally.  

00:03:24 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Right. So it didn't really occur to me. Like even when I stopped dancing, I, people would ask, why did you stop  dancing? And my answer continued to change kind of right. Like it was like, well, it was injured, which is true,  ? I'm tall, I'm five foot, 10, that's a barrier, that's true. It kind of turned into, well, I'm I guess I just wasn't very  happy. Then, it probably wasn't until close to a decade after I stopped dancing. After all of these years of writing  that I started to realize that what I had experienced had a name and that name is depression and that it potentially  could have been different. I really came to the discovery of my own mental health journey through the process  of writing. I'll never forget Wendy Perrin when she was the editor in chief of dance magazine kept assigning  mental health related articles.  

00:04:21 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

I remember finally asking her, I was like, Wendy, thanks for the work. This is great. Why do you keep asking  me to write home? And she said, well, you write it better than anybody else. And I laughed hysterically. I was  like, when the I'm a train wreck, like, informing people on mental health. She's very like very dead pan was just  like, well, maybe that's why you're so good at it. You know? And I think that's true. That was a meandering  answer to your question, but I figured it out much later. It was definitely in retrospect.  

00:05:00 

Linda Bluestein 

That that's really fascinating. None of the, I don't know how many healthcare professionals you would have  encountered along the way, but, I feel like as a healthcare professionals, myself, that's something that is very  often missed. So, you can have lots and lots of, people coming in to clinics for various different reasons.  Nobody asks that generally the right questions to identify that kind of thing. That's a huge part of problem  because yeah. In your career as a pre-professional dancer, I think you already kind of answered this question to  some degree, but I would love to hear more about, mental health, sounds like it was not a big part of the  conversation. What unhealthy coping strategies did you see if any?  

00:05:44 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Yeah, well, I mean, I think the dance world is rife with poor coping strategies. I think that's actually one of the  biggest opportunities for the way that we adjust dance training is by encouraging and informing on correct  coping strategies. So, I mean, what led to my injury to begin with was a pattern of disordered eating. I mean, I, I  didn't, I don't believe that I had a full-blown eating disorder, but I definitely had a very negative relationship  with food and I definitely was not fueling my body properly or resting it properly or doing any of those things  that all you talented, loving health professionals told us to do. I became an injured and being out, I felt invisible.  I was completely separated from my identity as a dancer in my social group. And, these are things that dancers  right at this moment are feeling too.  

00:06:49 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

I, well, so I had the disordered eating is definitely a coping strategy because of, the fear I had of being too big. I  think when you're a tall dancer, I'm already five foot 10, like you can't be tall and big. Like you're already told that you're heavy for the boys and stuff. Then, after I got injured, I kind of went into the spiral. I mean, I  definitely started drinking. I started abusing drugs, anything I could do to feel happy and to eliminate the pain  that I was feeling that I just couldn't really identify. It's been said, that, addiction is a solution to a problem you  think you cannot solve. And I think that is very accurate. I actually think that, drug abuse is a much bigger issue  in the dance world than discuss.  

00:07:48 

Linda Bluestein 

Absolutely. Mental health and drug abuse are so linked. If we can do a better job with mental health, that will  help us so much in making progress with, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, any of the smoking. I mean, all of those  things that, if we, I feel like mental health is absolutely at the root of everything else.  

00:08:12 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, the one thing that I think we accept and have accepted for a long time as a mental  health issue is eating disorders. Although I still see that, the, nutritionist is called in and I'm like, where's the  psychologist, right? Like, this is, and, that's in the same way that it can impact, addiction and drug use. It can  also impact eating disorder rates to be more proactive in terms of the way that we are, addressing the mindsets of dancers. I mean, we know that dancers are at least three times more likely than the general population to,  suffer an eating disorder. A staggeringly high rate, I distinctly remember, I believe it was in 1996 when, Heidi,  the core member with Boston ballet passed away from complications from her eating disorder. I remember that  too. Yeah. That, I was in a summer program. To me, when I speak about mental health and dance, I often bring  that moment up because to me, it was the first shift after that you started getting the, like all the boxes that get  checked now.  

00:09:25 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Right? So like at the summer program, there's the one hour session, the nutritionist, the session like to the whole  group, right. Sometimes there'll be the one hour session with a mental health professional. Those things didn't  start until that happened. Unfortunately it hasn't changed much since then, but if we can get to the root of things  causing, low self-esteem perfectionism, depression, anxiety, if we can start to chip away at those, the reduction  in eating disorders will surely follow. Yeah.  

00:10:02 

Linda Bluestein 

I, I totally agree with you. I think that dancers are drawn to dance for Specific reasons. I think people who are, if  you're not a perfectionist, especially like if you think about ballet, you're probably not going to be drawn to  ballet because you're not going to enjoy the nitpicking that people are going to do about your technique and  everything. So I think that's very true. With people, we know that more dancers are more hyper mobile and we  know that hypermobility and anxiety are very strongly linked. It all kind of is melded together. So, so once  you'd become a one step removed and, started interviewing dancers and teachers, it, was it easier at that point to  start to see the extent of the problem in the dance world?  

00:10:48 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Absolutely. When, when people ask me like, kind of how I got here, I, I, my kind of canned answer is by  accident, because it was completely by accident when I quit dancing. I know I wanted nothing to do with dance.  I had no desire to go see a dance performance to, I mean, zero desire in school for writing. I wanted to be a  fiction major. Cause I thought I wouldn't have to write about dance. How did that turn out? So, I think so I, I  ultimately took an in the internship with dance magazine that led me to becoming a dance writer simply because  I needed like a foot in the door. Right. I was like, I can get this internship. I can get published. And then I can be  a writer. Once I was in that role and started interviewing dancers and, medical professionals, mental health  professionals, directors, et cetera, I kind of went down the rabbit hole with it.  

00:11:54 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

I, I became so aware of kind of the context of my own story and what I had dealt with and then simultaneously  realized how not alone I am in that experience. I'm sure how resistant some leadership is to changing that  experience or feeling that it is in any way their responsibility to do. Then, the more dancers I talk to, someone  reaches out and said, says, I read this article you wrote. It felt like somebody understood me for the first time, like that is so motivating. Right. I just kept going and it continues to be that way. I can't imagine doing  something else.  

00:12:48 

Linda Bluestein 

Well, and you're doing such great work. I know that I was not alone. When you, when you gave that  presentation that I, when I first met you last summer, because boy, right after that, a lot of people, they were all  talking about how, like you said, how moved they were and how the, you, at the time you think that you are  experiencing something that is, not a common experience, but turns out to be more common than we just don't  talk about it. Like, like we need to.  

00:13:18 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, the article that I wrote in 2017, why are we still so bad at addressing dancer's  mental health? Which I shared my own story in that. Jenny Stall, the editor in chief of the magazine kind of gave  me an open invitation to write an op-ed type piece about something I cared about. And that's what came out. It  was terrifying and it took me three days to hit send, because I was just like, am I really gonna do this? But I've  never regretted it. I've never regretted being honest and open about my experience and my challenges with my  own mental health, because it is so common, this, the stigma we have in our head, it's like this isn't real. Like the  majority of people will relate to you. Even if they can't personally relate, they love someone that can write.  

00:14:13 

Linda Bluestein 

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Along the way, you've also conducted some really amazing interviews and I've  read some of the know, especially some of the recent things that you've done. What have you learned from  speaking with experts in the field of mental health, especially as it pertains to dancers?  

00:14:32 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Yeah, so many things. I think some of the things I would consider major takeaways, like if I could go back and,  grab Katie Maguire at 16 by the shoulders. 

00:14:46 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

I, I think one is, goal setting dancers are frankly terrible, et cetera. My goal was to be in New York city ballet.  Right. Here's the thing, like, there's nothing about getting into New York city ballet that is in my control, right. I  really think an opportunity for dancers in the way that they're framing the things that they want to do and  accomplish is to make sure that those goals are attached to things that they can actually control. It's not  productive to tie your goal and therefore your self esteem to something that is not, that you have no power over.  It's, I, it's something that I definitely, encourage dancers to do. Based on the conversations I've had with mental  health professionals to really like name the goal, like say it out loud, write it down, and then like, think about  that. Like, are there factors that are out of your control? I mean, it can be an aspiration, it can be a dream, but it  can't be the measure of your accomplishment.  

00:15:58 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

I think that might be the, kind of the biggest kind of takeaway that I get, talking to them that there are so many  others. I mean, I'm just trying to think of.  

00:16:09 

Jen Milner 

Well, and I think so much of dancer's mental health issues come back to control and that lack of control, because  just in general, we feel like there's so much that we do not have control over. If we don't have control over  whether or not we're going to get cast, we will control whether or not we're the skinniest person to be up for the job. It's that desire to have control over something that I think leads to a lot of issues, within dancers, mental  health. Recognizing that there are things you cannot control and then doing positive things about the things that  you can control is such a healthy step to take. I think that's a huge takeaway for you to have, from speaking with  the different experts throughout your interviews, don't you? 

00:16:57 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, and that is the thing you're right. The control aspect and it's deeply tied with the  perfectionism were just talking about. Right. And, there was a research study done in Portugal on very young  ballet dancers. They found that, and I think they were like between the ages of like six and nine, like they were  very young. What they found is that the young ballet dancers exhibited less psychological flexibility than their  peers in music or in the general population. I like psychological inflexibility, like, Oh my gosh, that was me. So,  I think these qualities that make someone potentially an excellent dancer, right? Like the willingness to work  that hard on trying to be as close to perfect as you possibly can, are also things that makes a person at a higher  risk for a mental health issue. Right. Like we need to accept that.  

00:18:10 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

We need to accept that kind of reality. I don't know, to me, it's like plain as day sometimes when I'm talking to a  leader of the dance field that kind of doesn't want to see this. I just but it's right there. It's like black and white  and it's so obvious.  

00:18:31 

Jen Milner 

So, you have gotten as you said, some amazing responses to the articles that you've written, especially the one  from 2017 and just the feedback that you have been receiving from all the dancers. That what led you to  founding minding the gap?  

00:18:49 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Yeah, I mean, so the, that article, I mean, it went viral. It's one of the most read articles. The magazine is  published. I think still to this day and yeah, and that was a stunning thing. Like, I will never forget the 48 hours  after they posted it, watching social media and just like all of the comments and people sharing their  experiences. It was kind of dumbfounding, like, and what it did was it confirmed for me like, yes, this isn't as  serious as you think it is. Like, you're not being hysterical. You're not beating the dead horse of your experience.  Right. Like this is real. I also realized, after that article, people started reaching out to me from all over the  world dancers, mental health professionals. And I was like, okay, I'm here. I am. I have a microphone. I have a  little stage. Like people are listening to me.  

00:19:52 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

What next? I mean, I literally had people reaching out to me going, okay, we're with you. What do we do next? I  was like, I guess I need to figure that out. I don't know. I just wrote an article. So that just blew you away. That,  that response it's, I mean, it did. It was, on the one hand, like, so incredibly validating to feel so like seen and to  feel this like giant community of human beings that were like, I see you, I hear you. Like, I am you. It  simultaneously just ripped my heart to pieces. And so, yeah, I, at the end of 2018, I, I quit my full-time job and I  started dedicating myself to minding the gap, full time. And it's been an interesting journey. I, going to the  PAMA conference where I met you, Linda, and, presenting in front of medical professionals.  

00:20:52 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

I mean, that was one of the scariest moments of my life because, I am not a medical professional, right? Like I'm  an advocate, I'm a writer. I am a person with a lived experience and to be accepted by the professional  community in that way was incredible. I see my role and I see minding the gap as essentially a platform for  combining and, collaborating on the good work that is happening, because I truly want there to be community  around this effort because, it's going to take all the water to raise this ship.  

00:21:38 

Jen Milner 

Yeah. So I'm sitting here digesting this. I love that you're describing it as a platform for combining and  collaborating all the resources that are available there. What made you come up with the name, minding the gap  and what made you think I'm going to create this.

00:21:59 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Yeah, absolutely. Well the name, I love, being a writer, I love words, and I love the kind of multiple meanings  of words. I love the word minding for obvious reasons, that it references the mind, it references care, but also  concern. Then, there's just a very clear gap. And, I came up with it and obviously thought of the London tube  and was like, is this a bad thing? And ultimately I was like, no, I mean, it's memorable, it's fine. Like, so really  at this point, right now, as I sit here, minding the gap, I would say is an advocacy and research efforts that I hope  to transition into a platform of solutions. The advocacy portion of it is a lot of, kind of what I've been doing  intuitively for almost 10 years now. That is talking to anyone that will talk to me about the answers, mental  health and trying to sway hearts and minds that either don't want to see this problem or don't feel it's their  responsibility to address this problem.  

00:23:16 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Obviously the social media platforms, et cetera, the research side of it. I, I get frustrated sometimes when I'm  speaking to someone who is resistant to kind of accepting this, how urgent this need is, and, without data, you're  another person with an opinion, right? So there is some data out there on dancers, mental health. There are some  incredible researchers across the that are dedicated to understanding these things. But, I, I find that there's some  very basic statements I can't make. Like, I can't tell you what the rate of depression is in dancers. I, I can't tell  you what the rate of anxiety is in dancers. I started off really simply doing surveys. After that initial article in  2017, that we've been talking about, the magazine actually allowed me to post a survey on their website. I, I co wrote that survey with, Dr. Brian gounon, he's a psychologist who is one of my collaborators and we got almost  900 responses.  

00:24:28 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Really, like, I was just, so the questions were things like, have you dealt with a mental health challenge in the  last five years? 75% said, yes. Right. Wow. Does your school or company have a psychologist or mental health  professional that the dancers are referred to? 75% said, no. Like I, it goes on and on it's on my website, we are  minding the gap.org if you want to look at it. I started kind of, I kind of started drilling down more into the  seriousness of this and trying to kind of create the parameters of what the watch, right? Like how serious, how  big, how, what is this experience? I've followed that up with another survey that I did, I think last winter, and  that one had, I think 350 responses. In that one, I was really interested in like, okay, what mental health topics or  concerns are the most important to you, to the dancers? And, it's interesting.  

00:25:37 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

I think most people would expect that eating disorders would be in the top three, but it wasn't their number one  concern was, self-esteem and confidence. Number two is depression and anxiety. Number three was, dealing  with rejection. What that tells me actually is that dancers are actually quite intuitive about their needs. I don't  think there's a dancer in the world that will claim that eating disorders aren't important or a problem, but all of  those things, right. We're talking about self-esteem depression, anxiety, and essentially coping, which is what  you're doing when you're dealing with rejection. Those are the things, those are the seeds that can plant in eating  disorder. I was like, wow, like they get it without even knowing it. They collectively get it and we need to  address those things. That's, I mean, that's where it is right now.  

00:26:42 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

I have a, for the last two years, I've been working on this grant to do a really extensive three-year longitudinal  research study on dancers. It was essentially funded and postponed indefinitely because of the COVID-19 crisis  we're going through currently. And that absolutely makes sense. Like, this is a mental health crisis that we're  living through and that foundation needs to address that. Right. Like, so this is not the time for that right now.  Right. So, the research portion is on hold at the moment and I'm pivoting again. I feel like entrepreneur life, I  guess, is just constant fit in it. Actually I don't have the date or time yet, but next week I am preparing to launch  my first kind of direct interaction with dancers. I'm going to start hosting what I'm considering, mental health,  like education, public meetings, I guess, via like the zoom platform where every two weeks I will moderate a  discussion between a mental health professional and, a well-known dancer. 

00:27:58 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

We're going to talk about what's happening right now. We're going to talk about this impossible situation.  Dancers find themselves in, I mean, the entire dance world is collectively sitting at home with their foot in an  ice bucket, essentially everybody's injured right now. and they're really serious implications for dancers mental  health. I am looking at this loss of opportunity to continue my research as the direction to me, what I'm  receiving is okay, like, stop talking about it. Like you've got to get out there and connect the dancers with the  people that can help them.  

00:28:41 

Jen Milner 

Absolutely. I would, I would totally agree with that. What you said about dancers, staying at home with their  feet in the proverbial ice bucket is so true because everyone, every single dancer out there is trying to deal with  the loss of a contract or, even just that comfort, that ritual of being in class every single day in the studio. Even  dancers who are normally pretty mentally healthy have to be struggling right now. As these dancers try to figure  out the new normal of life and the time of coronavirus. It sounds like you're offering basically, a mental health  town hall meeting via zoom. Is that okay?  

00:29:22 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Fair to say, that's a good way to put it, it's like, it's so new and I I've decided to do this like three days ago and  now I'm doing so I don't even know how to talk about it yet, but yeah, that's a good way to describe it. The idea  is that, I would moderate this discussion. I, I can have up to a hundred, dancers, like in the audience, if you will  live and they'll be able to ask questions that I can moderate to the guests so that we're addressing their real  concerns. I'll put it up on YouTube, I'll record it. It'll be on YouTube or whatever, so anyone can access it, can  go back and watch it. Yeah. It's going to, I mean, it's going to be completely free. Like this is, we just need to,  we need to help the dancers right now.  

00:30:07 

Jen Milner 

Well, I can say personally, I think that's an extraordinary step. I think everybody's trying to figure out what to do  and how to help. I think that's going to be a huge thing. My guess is when the article came out, most of the  feedback that you got was from the dancers from the whole, thank you for putting a name on it and for  acknowledging that the emperor has no clothes on and just kind of, just finally being the one to say, Hey, wait,  why is this not being discussed? Everybody can see the guys naked. Why are we pretending the guys dressed?  And that everybody's happy and healthy. Right. It wasn't so much from the top of the artistic directors and the  funding people that were saying, Oh, great, thanks for bringing that up. We'll get right on it. Not that they don't  care, but just that there was the relief from the bottom, from the ground that was coming with it.  

00:30:58 

Jen Milner 

I think in that same way, this conversation sitting around thing that you're going to have is going to be hugely  helpful for dancers because right now they all feel pretty alone. I love that this is going to be a way they can  gather together and talk about it. Do you have any other strategies that have come to your attention with  minding the gap or that you heard of, for people who are feeling alone, are there ways that they can address this  in a healthy way that of?  

00:31:27 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Sure. My, as soon as they started shelter in place, as soon as that started happening, especially, here in the U S I  emailed every mental health professional. I know that works with dancers, which is actually like a lovely, like  body of people, there are people out there. And I asked them that question. I was just like, what do they do?  What do we do? Right. I did put a blog up on, the minding the gap website, with specific mental health advice  from those professionals for dancers. I think the analogy of thinking of this as a long-term injury is a helpful one  in a way, I, the thing I'm really worried about right now is this kind of fanatical online dance class thing. That's  going on, like on the one hand, it's lovely, right? Like, it's great. Like, Tyler Peck, ballet class in the kitchen.  Awesome. 

00:32:29 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Right. I, what I worry about is that we have dancers all over the world right now taking four or five dance  classes a day in their kitchen and working out and probably not eating enough because they are so again, trying  to control what they think they can control, but doing it in a way that isn't healthy and exercise addiction is a  real thing. It is very much comorbid with eating disorders, as you both know. But, I'm really concerned about  that. Like, I think dancers need to be kind to themselves like, yeah, you do need to keep moving. Like, having,  the drop in endorphins that can happen from somebody who is so active, suddenly not being active at all is a  mental health concern. Like, to me, this is the time to reconnect with why you're dancing in the first place.  Right. Like why I I'll tell you why they're dead.  

00:33:30 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

I mean, why did everybody start dancing? This is the most boring part of every interview I've ever done. Tell me  about how you became a dancer. Now, when I was two or three, I was dancing around the kitchen and my mom  was like, Oh my God, she loves to dance. She signed me up for dance, but I mean, it's the beginning of 95% of  the stories of dancers. I have a four year old daughter. So I watch it in real time. Right. Like you started dancing  because it was joyful. You started dancing and as your body needed to move, you did it because it felt good and  it made you happy. Right. Now's the time to reconnect with that. Like, yes, keep moving. Like, do you have to  have, perfect form, like, no you don't, put on Bruno Mars and shake your booty.  

00:34:19 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Right. I really hope that the dancers are trying to find a way to reconnect with that joyfulness and that kind of  primal aspect of loving dance. I also hope very much that they are recognizing that if they're feeling really upset  and sad and angry and all of those things about not being able to dance right now that's a sign that you still love  this, right? Like, that's the sign that like, you're on the right path, you're doing the right thing because you miss it  with your whole body and your whole heart. Right. And maybe you don't miss it. Maybe you feel better. Maybe  there was a situation you were in that wasn't good for like this is a reckoning and it can be very positive if we  can frame it that way.  

00:35:13 

Jen Milner 

Absolutely. And, and I think also just giving the dancers, permission to grieve, most of my dancers are pre professionals and they're distraught over losing the summer intensive that they were going to go to or losing the  chance at the contracts for next year that they were hoping to get into. These auditions that have all been  canceled. There's this sense of, I don't know what's going to come next, but not necessarily feeling like, not  being able to recognize that it's grief, that they're feeling and it's okay to grieve that and know it's not the end of  their story, but the next chapter may not look like what they thought it would look like. And that's okay.  

00:35:54 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Absolutely. Yes. What, this is actually going back to the big lessons I've learned for mental health professionals.  This reminds me of one of those. That is really that you have to love the process, right? Like if you're a dancer,  because you want to go up on stage and be applauded all the time, like you're not going to have a great time and  I'm not trying to minimize the losses of those performances. It's devastating. Right. The work that has been put  into preparing for those performances is still worthwhile and it still matters and it still exists. The tree fell in the  woods. Right. Like it did, you did it. I think there's a lesson in that too, in loving the process and not the  outcome.  

00:36:43 

Jen Milner 

Absolutely. I think that's a great point to make. For these dancers who are struggling with these issues right now,  which is pretty much all of them, are there resources out there available for people who need the help right now  and how will they find them?  

00:36:58 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Yeah. That's, I mean, that's an excellent question. Yes and no. I mean, there definitely are amazing organizations that have resources out there. The, the actor's fund based in New York is amazing. It's not just for actors, it's  definitely for dancers as well. They do have, small grants and funds that they give to dancers that are going  through difficult times. There's also, the national coalition for arts preparedness and emergency response is an  interesting website to look at, depending on where you are, most, I don't want to say all, but most, insurance  companies are waiving copays for mental health support right now. And that's fantastic. Yeah. I have seen that.  That's great. Yeah. If you're lucky enough to have insurance, but no paycheck, like you can talk to a therapist for  free, very likely right now, the other thing I like to remind dancers of is that, mental health professionals, I think,  I don't want to say all of them, but most of them do work on a sliding scale.  

00:38:20 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Like, they do have like an ethical requirement to support people that need support and, it is always worth it to  reach out and say like, I'm really struggling and I need support, but this is my situation. Right. So I think that's  important. I think it's very important for people to look up the crisis lines in their area, the national suicide  prevention hotline is 800-273-8255. Most places do have, more local resources available too. Honestly, I keep  those phone numbers in my phone and sure, it's partially if I were to be in a crisis, I have it, but I keep it even  more for the situation where someone I care about is in crisis. It's a really scary thing to be speaking with  someone you love and to hear their distress and to not know what to do. Having a phone number is a really  helpful thing in that moment to be able to share it with them quickly.  

00:39:31 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Actually like, there's something too about, I was talking to one of the mental health professionals I collaborate  with. There's something really powerful too about being like, Hey, I keep this phone number in my phone. Like,  I'm going to send it to you because it normalizes it. Right. Like I have this in my phone because I see this as a  valid and important thing for me to have in my phone. So, it's hard for me to give a blanket response to the  resources that are out there, because it does depend quite a bit on where you are and what state you're in, but  there's all kinds of ways to get online mental health right now.  

00:40:07 

Jen Milner 

Yes. I, I agree. Thank you for that. And I know, go ahead.  

00:40:13 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Oh, I was gonna say, I love the idea of putting the phone number in your phone. I've never heard that before.  I've never thought about that before, but it's one of those things where, like you said, it normalizes it and then  when you need it's one less barrier. One less step to having to look it up. If you need it for yourself and you need  it for somebody that you love. I I'm seriously going to do that. As soon as we are done with this call, I'm going  to put that number in my phone. I think that's a great idea. It's a simple thing that we can all do.  

00:40:42 

Jen Milner 

Yeah. And that normalizes it as well. Yeah. I love that. I know we are. I know we're just trying to get through  this one day at a time right now, and everybody's trying to figure out what this all looks like. I know that  minding the gap was not started with the whole coronavirus thing in mind, but it certainly is helpful that it's  already in place. I know that it needs support now. I love that you have so quickly tried to transition to how can  this help in this situation with the town hall meetings that you're going to be doing? are there other projects that  you're working on? I know that the research grants on an indefinite hold is this where you're trying to shape it  towards, what else are you hoping for the future?  

00:41:27 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Yeah, so the idea behind the research really is that, one, we would, a body of 150 dancers for three years. We  would start with kind of a baseline of their mental health, measuring the things that I just desperately want  measurements for, like depression and anxiety. Self-esteem, I have three psychologists that I'll be collaborating  with in this research. You know, I am not a PhD. And, then over the course of those, the next three years, we  would implement a mental health program that by the end of the three-year period would rival the physical  health resources available to the dancers. By the end of three years in the same way that you can, go into a free  physical therapy evaluation with a PT at a major score company, I think you should be able to do the same with a mental health professional. Then, it really starts with, working with the teachers and kind of unpacking some  of the baggage of, hundreds of, years of dance training.  

00:42:42 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

That's been done a certain way. I think that there most teachers are wonderful human beings that adore their  students and want to care for them. They may not even realize sometimes that their approach is, negative and  potentially even abusive because that approach was normalized for them as a dancer. Right. We've got to  unpack some baggage here, right? Like we've got to, you gotta deal with that.  

00:43:10 

Jen Milner 

Yeah. I've had, I've had several teachers say, Oh, I disagree. I mean, this is the way I was treated when I was a  kid. And you know, it's fine. I mean, it's just part of the history and if, and they're not bad people and there, they  would never speak to the kids in such a way outside of that setting. And that's the thing that they just have a hard  time seeing it's not okay. Just because it's in ballet. Just because it's been handed down for 200 years, that you  yell at the dancers and tell them they're fat and make them feel bad about themselves.  

00:43:39 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Yeah. It's no, it's absolutely not. Okay. It's like, it's so the opposite of, okay. I have that same conversation all  the time and I just want to pull my hair out. Like I'm like wait, so you were treated badly and that made you  believe that made you a better dancer. Like, it just, it does not compute. You know, shame is a terrible  motivator. This is something we know science proves it, right. Like shame is not a good motivator it's in that  and dance, I feel like just relies on it so heavily in training so often. Yeah, no, I'm totally with you there.  

00:44:20 

Jen Milner 

Well, I love that idea. I hope that in three years we do see, mental health resources that equal the physical health  resources available to dancers. It's been an exciting, I don't know, 10 to 15 years, I think for me watching the  dancers, physical health resources become so much more available. I think just over the past 10 to 15 years, it's  really grown to go from just a few select top national companies to it's commonly talked about. Every summer  intensive offers Pilates and has PT on hand, at least sporadically. And, and so it's trickling down and I would  love to see that thing happen again, have another revolution in the mental health arena and have it trickle down  and become so commonplace. There's a sports psychologist to talk to you. If you're stressed out, there's a  counselor to talk to like being able to help the dancers and direct them where they need to go and make it be, as  you said, completely normalized.  

00:45:21 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Yeah. I mean, and that really is the goal. I mean, the idea of the research is that over the course of that time,  we'll continue to measure. Hopefully kind of see if we can make a difference in kind of ground truth. What we  believe are the interventions that will help dancers. How do we build this program? Like how do we implement  it in a way that the dancers will use it, right? Like you, can't just plop a psychologist in the middle of the dance  studio and they're going to go talk to them. It's a culture shift, right? So like how do we work within a dance  institution to create that shift and to do it successfully? And the idea is that after we're, after we've done that and  learned all the lessons and hit all the walls and had our successes, that we can then take those kinds of efforts,  other places to places that want that kind of change for their dancers, for their institution.  

00:46:19 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

So, that's kind of the long term when I say we're working toward the solutions, these are delicate things. This is  a difficult nut to crack. It's like, if you don't go in there with, a surgical scalpel, like you can't just go in there  hacking, we got to do it the right way. I think, I think another, as you're describing this Kathleen, another thing  that I'm thinking about when I am seeing a patient who often comes in and they have a lot of anxiety and I often  will look at usually it's mom that brings them in. Oftentimes mom has a tremendous amount of anxiety as well.  And, I think it's even much more important for mental health because of the fact that, once the tide starts to turn,  I think it will, be almost, kind of contagious that, help healthier, mentally healthier dancers in groups are going  to actually be able to impact each other. 

00:47:21 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

They'll be able to really, I think it will, once it gets even more, once this movement really is more in process, I  think it will be a really fantastic thing.  

00:47:33 

Jen Milner 

Yes. Yeah. And, and I can't wait to see it become the new normal.  

00:47:47 

Jen Milner 

That is a fantastic goal is to try to work yourself out of a job. I love that. Yeah. That's a great goal to have in this  field. I really appreciate all that you have done and all that you are trying to do in the clarity of your vision.  There anything else that you would like to share about what you're doing and can you please make sure people  know where they can find you?  

00:48:08 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think for now, that's in terms of what I've got cooking, keep on the lookout for these  public town halls. Thank you for helping me with the branding of that. And, the website is  www.wearemindingthegap.org. I, there's a blog there's a resources page. I guess I should have mentioned that  when you asked about resources, and actually, on that resources page, you'll find websites and phone numbers  and all kinds of stuff. I also have a catalog of articles that I've written on related topics. There, in case they're  helpful, I'm on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all those places. I'm definitely grateful, to anyone that's willing to  follow along with me in this journey and, feel free to reach out, I can reach me through the website very easily. I  love talking to people about this stuff. You know, this is my passion.  

00:49:17 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

I spend a lot of times worrying about dancers and I'm deeply concerned right now. We're gonna do everything  we can to support them. Hopefully someday I'll get to get back to hugging them. You meant to that where  specifically do people sign up for this town hall? Because I, I want to spread the word about that too. That  sounds great. Totally. Yeah. So I'm confirming the time right now. My first two guests, one is in Texas and one  is in Belgium. We're working on, the time for it. As soon as I have the time confirmed, I'm going to put out  probably like an event, bright link so that people can reserve kind of the spot because, the zoom meeting can  only handle so many spots. I will start blasting it out on social media as soon as I have that ready. Also it'll be,  linked on the website.  

00:50:11 

Jen Milner 

Excellent. Another reason to be following you on social media,  

00:50:14 

Kathleen McGuire Gaines 

Right? Yes. Yes. I want to point out one thing too, because having been involved in one of these zoom things  capped at a hundred people. One thing that I want to point out to people is that yep, absolutely register.  

00:50:28 

Linda Bluestein 

If you register and the meeting starts at a certain time, it's kind of first come first serve. If you have a hundred  people enter the meeting and you're 101, and you had signed up in advance, but you didn't enter the meeting,  right. When it started or whatever, you might not be able to get in. So, I just want to mention that, with those  

caps, that doesn't guarantee, I mean, unless you were having a different system, Kathleen, I apologize. I should  maybe ask you if that's my understanding about how those work usually. No, that's great. Something I hadn't  quite thought about, I I'm, I hope everyone that comes to the first one will be gentle with me flat on my face.  That's why, that's why I'm mentioning it because I have been involved in these and I've seen some really upset  people because they really wanted to do it. 

00:51:16 

Linda Bluestein 

This is a fantastic thing that you're doing. As you mentioned, it's going to be available afterwards, but if you  want to be one of the people who's actually there live and be able to ask questions and that kind of thing, right.  Because there's going to be an interactive component, is that correct? Okay. Yeah. To the best of my ability, it'll  depend on the questions coming in, but I do have an ambition that if the questions can't be answered, during the  meeting that I will do my best to gather those and put them on the blog or something with answers. So we'll see  fabulous. Everybody just needs to have grace towards everyone, as far as social media savvy goes right now,  because we're all learning zoom at an exponentially higher rate. Yes. That's just the way it goes. Yes. Well, I am  so grateful that you joined us today.  

00:52:07 

Linda Bluestein 

You have been listening to bendy bodies with the hypermobility MD and our guests has been Kathleen Gaines,  former dancer writer and fundraiser, and founder of minding the gap. Kathleen, it has been so fabulous having  you here and we are so grateful. Thank you so much.  

00:52:37 

Linda Bluestein 

Please go to bendybodies.org for links to all the episodes and to access the show notes. If you enjoy this  podcast, please share, leave a review and consider rating us five stars. Don't forget to subscribe. You will be  notified of all new episodes. Feedback is greatly appreciated and can be emailed to bendy bodies  podcast@gmail.com. Go to hypermobility md.com to sign up for my newsletter. My guest coast, Jennifer  Milner can be reached at jennifer-milner.com. Thank you to Rhett Gilson production and sound editing to  Andrew Savino for composing original music and to Jennifer arsenal for designing the bendy bodies website  and cover artwork. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice.  Please see your own medical team prior to making any changes to your health care. Thanks for tuning in, and  we'll see you next time on bendy bodies with the hypermobility MD.