The Untold Secrets to Dance Strength with Adji Cissoko

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Dr. Linda Bluesetin: [00:00:00] Welcome back every bendy body to the bendy bodies podcast with your host and founder, Dr. Linda Blustein, the hypermobility MD. I am so excited to chat today with Adji Cissoko. Adji is a gorgeous principal dancer with the Lions Ballet Company. I first saw her perform a year ago at the same festival, the Vail Dance Festival, where she was the artist in residence.

She is such a gorgeous dancer and has such beautiful lines. I was just really eager to speak with her about how she takes care of her body. what her feelings are about joint hypermobility in dance, and if she's had problems with injuries or not. I wanted to talk to her about her [00:01:00] training, what she does for nutrition, and sleep, and so much more.

Adji Cissoko grew up in Munich, Germany. She trained at the Ballet Academy Munich and graduated with a diploma in dance. In 2012, she was awarded the Patron Award of Merit by the Patron's Council Committee of the National Ballet of Canada. Adji joined Lions Ballet in 2014. Since then, she has originated many central roles and guested for galas worldwide and taught classes around the world as part of the company's outreach program.

In 2020, Adji became certified in Health and Life Coaching and also became certified in ABT's National Training Curriculum. She is going to be joining me today. And I am so thrilled to get to share this conversation with you. As always, this information is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for personalized medical advice.

Stick around until the very [00:02:00] end so you don't miss any of our special hypermobility hacks. Let's get started.

Super excited to chat with Adji Cissoko. Okay, wonderful. Thank you so much for chatting with me. And we are of course here at the Veil Dance Festival, which is amazing. And where I saw you perform for the first time last year when you were the artist in residence. So phenomenal. And I've gotten to see you perform already this year, which is amazing and looking forward to so many more performances and we are outside right now.

So if you hear extraneous sounds, um, it's because we have a little bit of water in the background and, but it's just so beautiful here in Vail. And we are of course at the Manor Lodge and it's just. too beautiful to be sitting inside. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to start out by asking you about how you take care of your body.

And if you look at your Instagram account, people say things about, you know, your incredible range of motion and how having legs like that should be illegal. [00:03:00] And I'm sure that you do a lot to take care of your body. Can you share with us some of the things that you do in terms of your body? Uh, training, nutrition and, and things like that.

Adji Cissoko: Yeah, I think when I was younger, I didn't really think much about how to take care of my body. I didn't really understand how important that instrument is. Um, last year I was collaborating with my cousin, Yuba, who plays the kora, and he takes such good care of that instrument. Like he wakes up, he tends to it, he tunes it.

And that's the same with our bodies. So, uh, when I'm not performing or rehearsing, there's a lot that I have to do to keep everything going. So from massage to physical therapy to rolling out. And then my new thing is that contrast of hot cold. So whether you do that in the shower, taking a really hot shower and then turning the water to really cold just to get the circulation going, I think it's really helpful for me.

Um, ice baths. [00:04:00] People really, really believe in it. And I've tried it a few times and it does feel amazing. And so since we are so close to the creek, I've been putting my feet, um, in there almost every day and it feels amazing. So I think that there's always that balance of Stretching and using your body, but then also coming back into that healing pattern of like giving your body love and love can also mean strengthening, right?

Um, I'm a big believer in strengthening your body so that it can do what you require it to do. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Yeah, and speaking of stretching, are you naturally as flexible as you appear to be? Did you have to do a lot of stretching early on? Tell us about that. 

Adji Cissoko: Yeah, that's a, I have a funny story about that. Um, when I first started dancing, my mom put me into ballet and jazz and my jazz teacher said, Oh, let's all try the splits.

And I just went right into the split. I didn't stretch. I had never tried it before and everybody was like, oh my gosh, like, [00:05:00] have you been practicing? And I was like, no, I guess I just am flexible. So that was kind of the first indication that that came very natural to me. But then when I went into ballet class and we had adagio and like these like high extensions, I couldn't get my leg there and hold it there.

So the teacher would come up, take my leg, put it by my head. As soon as she lets go, my leg would go all the way down to the floor. So it was like very clear that I had that flexibility, but not the strength to support it. So that was my big journey of how can I really use my extensions? in a way where I can support them and show them because there's not going to be somebody walking around with me taking my legs up.

Right. So, um, I had to strengthen and through strength, you can explore how to use all of that. Yeah. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: So at what age and how did you work on developing that strength? And I think so many dancers are worried if they develop that kind of strength. that they will lose some of their [00:06:00] flexibility. So were you concerned about that at all?

And, and how did you actually go about doing that? 

Adji Cissoko: I think that naturally with our ballet training, that is strengthening, right? Like we did a lot of floor bar and exercises that are engaging the core and the back. And so understanding that the movement comes more from within rather than just the limbs.

Like using the limbs. And so that there, they started to be that guidance from the core and like supported by the core. Um, I was never really concerned about the flexibility going away because actually it's almost the other way around where I felt like the more strength I gained, the more, uh, I could actually show the extensions.

So I think there's that myth of like, Oh, I'm getting too strong. I'm not flexible, but I mean, you can still stretch after strengthening. There's not like, Oh, you can stretch. But I think that the strength will actually support and help the [00:07:00] flexibility. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Yeah, that's, that's fabulous. Because of course, every dancer wants gorgeous extension and, uh, you know, I think it's harder to get dancers to be convinced about the strength part, especially younger dancers, right?

So, in, otherwise, in terms of your training, are there certain things that you do in terms of, um, cross training? And, or things like nutrition, sleep, supplements, anything like 

Adji Cissoko: that. I 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: love 

Adji Cissoko: that you said sleep. Um, I sleep nine to 10 hours a night and I really strongly believe that's how my body heals itself.

Um, especially up here with elevation, I feel like I need even more sleep to really heal Give the body the moment of rest and rejuvenating. Um, and then cross training, 100%. I used to do a lot of Pilates, um, especially when I dance with the National Ballet of Canada, I had Pilates privates like twice a week and all we did was core, core, core, [00:08:00] um, to just support all that length that I had.

Um, it was just hard to really know where the ends of my limbs were. And I think that. helped me a lot. Now I'm very much a gyrotonics person. I love gyrotonics because there you actually have that combination of going to your full range and then bringing it in and then full, like there's that breath with the movement that I really enjoy experimenting with.

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Okay, great. So that's interesting how that's evolved over time for you as well. And, and I'm a big believer in sleep too. So I'm really glad that you said you take, you get that much sleep. So what about in terms of your nutrition? I know your mom's a nurse, right? So maybe you had a little bit more, did you have a little more insight into these kinds of things?

Do you think when you were younger? 

Adji Cissoko: Not really, to be honest. Um, when I lived in Germany, which is where I was born and grew up, um, the German diet is. We just had like two [00:09:00] German meals a week and then three Senegalese meals a week and that was it. There was not a lot of attention of like, is it healthy or not, because actually the food there is just more nutritious and better.

That's what I'm realizing now that I live in the States. Um, so a lot of rice, a lot of, you know, Protein, meats, vegetables. It was always actually a really good balance without us focusing on that. It's just very normal. I think it's just a normal way of eating in Germany. Um, now I do pay more attention to getting more protein in my diet.

So I usually have a protein shake and then with. Most of my meals, there's also some source of protein, whether that's eggs or chicken or whatever, so that I really make sure that my body has that to function. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Yeah, no, that's, that's really good. And then what about the pandemic? I mean, I know probably a lot of dancers are tired of talking about the pandemic.

I just want to ask in terms of Coming back. I know I, I saw [00:10:00] a wonderful video of you being interviewed and you talked about how you missed hugs and you were, you were, you were looking forward to that when you came back. Um, when you came back, you, you were of course training, even while you were. in, uh, shutdown and quarantine, you were still training, you know, of course on your own, but was it difficult when you then went back to a more full performance schedule?

Were there certain things that you had to do at that time? 

Adji Cissoko: That's a wonderful question. I think the pandemic definitely had me living a very different schedule, but in my schedule, there was always some sort of movement actually without me realizing at first. Whether it was like taking a bar at home or I did a lot of dancing in nature because you know you weren't supposed to be around a lot of people so I was outside a lot in the parks and I would just use my inspiration to move and dance.

Um, and then I also did strengthening online. Um, I [00:11:00] actually taught a stretch and strengthen class each week and so because I did it on Zoom I had to do it full out as well and that was so cool. great for me because then I got my strengthening in as well. Um, so I did feel pretty strong when we came back, but of course it's not the same, it's not comparable to a day of like six hours of dancing nonstop to doing an hour here and there.

So I, uh, got really passionate about running during the pandemic, which is something that I didn't do before and that I'm not doing now. It was really just the pandemic. But I think that also helped my stamina and like keeping it going. But it's also interesting that listening to your body and what it needs is so important.

So, um, On a regular basis, I train so hard that my body isn't like, Oh, let's do more. Let's go for a run. That's not what it needs. But back then I didn't do all of that. So it really was like craving some of that. And I was just [00:12:00] listening to it. I was like, okay, let's do it. And I got really into it. Yeah. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: I'm so glad you said that.

I tell dancers all the time, listen to your body. And it's so ironic because of course, also right now the Olympics are going on, right? And you see Olymp, whether it's Olympic gymnasts or, you know, uh, other sports. They're, they're taped up, they have injuries. I'm sure, you know, dancers, of course, dance through injury all the time.

Mostly, most dance injuries are overuse injuries rather than traumatic injuries. So I think that's even harder. Like at what point do you alter what you're doing or. you know, change your rehearsal schedule or your performance schedule. Have you had to deal with much in the way of injury and or alter things?

And do you have other advice for dancers when it comes to injury? 

Adji Cissoko: Yeah, I, I'm also a health life coach and I really do believe in that listening part. And that's not just for injuries. That's also about when do you push, right? [00:13:00] Like you might wake up exhausted in the morning and you think, Oh, maybe I shouldn't do anything.

That's not the right approach. It's like you're exhausted. Let's see where we can go. Right? So I do believe that there's moments where you can still push yourself a little bit further, but then there's also moments where if you really deeply listen to it, it's like, if I push any further, I'm not gaining anything from that in that moment because I'm fatigued and I'm not even like mentally there.

So I think there's such a balance and there's like, The older I get, the more I'm in tune with my body and I'm understanding what it's telling me. And I know, Oh, this is a moment to just overcome that little fatigue because I'm tired. Right. And then I also know, Oh, this is it for today. I'll try again tomorrow.

Um, injury wise, I, I was pretty lucky that I haven't had like any major injuries or operations or such, but. Two years ago I had like hip problems and then they did find out that I had a tear in my [00:14:00] labrum which hard to know have I always had that like a lot of dancers have them and that is another sign where I really got into strengthening.

I had to just strengthen my glutes and you. restructure how I work, even more aware of how you place your body in space and how it coordinates. So honestly, it was just a great opportunity to go deeper and refine my work. Now I'm dealing with a little bit of a patella tendonitis, which has been very annoying because it's so easy to say, Oh, if you're hurting, like don't do it, but then there are shows coming up and then you're needed there and you can't just sit out in rehearsal because you have to perform it.

So I think there's that balance again of getting work done. I did like shockwave therapy the other day, but also again, giving it love. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Yeah. And tendon injuries are so hard to heal because in general, tendons don't get great blood flow. So whether it's your Achilles tendon or your patellar tendon and ligaments too, I mean, that's [00:15:00] why people who, especially people who are hypermobile.

And I say all the time, if you have, if you have joint hypermobility, so increased range of motion of joints, which 90 plus percent of elite ballet dancers have, it's a requirement at the same time that of course it can present challenges. But the real question is, you know, why is the person hypermobile in the first place?

And that is what makes the difference in terms of how many injuries they have and how hard it is to heal and that kind of thing. But even people that just, You know, have joint hypermobility without an underlying connective tissue disorder. Um, you know, we still, everyone gets injuries from time to time, right?

If we're on this planet long enough, we will get injuries for sure. And, um, so with your hip labral tear, you did not have surgery, correct? No, I didn't. And I don't really feel it anymore. Yeah. Which is really great because, uh, I have a lot of, yeah, right. Exactly. Good, good call. Good call. Um, it's, I'm really glad that you mentioned that because you're right.

Hip labral tears are very, [00:16:00] very common in dancers and they're also common in, you know, uh, regular people as well. And, and it's hard because sometimes if they go to an orthopedic surgeon, who's a little bit more on the aggressive side, they might not recommend that they. Try more conservative therapies first.

So the third episode of this podcast, which was in 2020, uh, would, would have been published in like March of 2020. So over four years ago was with a hip surgeon, um, Joel Wells from Texas. And we talked about hips and the importance, cause of course in dancers, it's. Hipster get, get a lot of use and probably abuse, you know, I mean, it's an incredibly important part of the body and the range of motion there is so important.

So I'm really glad that you were able to strengthen and, and overcome that because, um, sometimes I think. that might be possible for other people and they might not necessarily know that. 

Adji Cissoko: Yeah, it's true. And there were definitely moments where I was [00:17:00] like, uh, I don't know, am I going to recover from this?

And especially because I didn't have any injuries before, and which I know is very unusual. So I'm very lucky. But I just at first didn't know how to deal with it. Um, but yeah, then I would go, do a strengthening session and walk out of there with no pain at all. I was like, okay, so strengthening my body is reacting well to it.

Um, so I continue to do so and it really helped me so much. Yeah. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Yeah. And, and I don't know, have you ever heard of Ehlers Danlos syndromes? No. Okay. So that's a hereditary connective tissue disorder. And some people say, Oh, well, professional ballet dancers could, could never have that. But I have talked to a number of professional ballet dancers who, who were later, you know, usually later in their, after they stopped dancing, diagnosed with, with that condition, uh, that group of conditions, I should say.

And it's, it is really, really challenging because, um, you know, they can get more injuries and things. And, and someone else that I interviewed for the podcast who danced for Royal Ballet, American Ballet Theater, she won [00:18:00] the Prix de Lausanne. Um, She, she basically just covered up her injuries with ibuprofen, covered up her pain, right?

So, so that is not the way to approach it because that's just not going to end well. 

Adji Cissoko: And luckily, I'm allergic to all of those, so I can't even take Advil or ibuprofen or anything. So I just have to always hear the natural way, which is probably better. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Yeah, it probably is a lot. a lot better. So, so that's good.

Um, I also learned some fascinating things about you when I was doing research for the, for this interview. Um, you, you are such an inspiring person. I have to, I have to say the more I read about you, the more, the first time I saw you dance, I was just so inspired. And then I got to meet you afterwards with Erica Fishback from Colorado Ballet Academy.

She introduced us. So I was watching this interview and they, and you were talking about How you started taking poetry classes in the pandemic. You also in 2020 became a certified life and health coach, [00:19:00] and you also completed the ABT national training curriculum, correct? So you've done a lot of other amazing things already in your short life.

Besides, besides being a professional ballet dancer, which is, which is amazing. Um, I want to talk a little bit about the being a life and health coach. What can you tell us about. what that involves, what you're doing with it now, what you think you might want to do with that in the future. 

Adji Cissoko: Yeah, I, I did it a lot in the, during the pandemic, just because I had more time and I really noticed how much I love it.

And especially as a dancer, dance gives us so much. It fuels our soul. It really is like our, our life in a way. And I wasn't sure if I could find other things that also give me so much back, but yeah. doing health life coaching or any kind of coaching in general really does give me so much back. And so that's good to know for the future.

And I do want to take that health life coaching on more of the life coaching side. And then also, especially for [00:20:00] dancers, because dancers don't really have a lot of resources, which is crazy. Um, where they, they sign up for PT, but next to the PT sheet should also be. coaching sheet, right? Like, and that doesn't mean you need therapy or something crazy, but it's more like, I feel really stressed out.

How do I handle this? I, my Achilles is hurting and I'm battling that, that battle of like, do I stop? Do I go? So it's just talking about things that concern you because all of that, all of that mental health also reflects in the body. A lot of people that have back injuries that can be emotional, right?

And so if you. only care about the physical side and not so much about also your well being, your holistic well being, then that can cause injuries, that can cause fatigue, that can cause unnecessary stress. And I think so that's really, really important to also address on a regular basis. In general, with how [00:21:00] I coach, it's a lot about fine tuning that listening that we talked about earlier, um, really getting in touch with your body and your senses and allowing yourself to listen to your own voice and not so much always about what others say, what others believe, because everybody is so different.

Everybody heals different. Um, Absorbs differently. So I think it's important to know that about yourself so that you know how to address any issue that comes up. Um, and then there's also experimenting, right? Like, especially with nutrition, I can give you like things that are healthy, but are they healthy for you?

We don't know yet, right? Like some people, they might really enjoy a salad before the show. They feel light, they feel healthy. And then others are like, no, that doesn't sit well with me at all. It makes me feel bloated, makes me feel not good. So it's so different. We are so individual and that should be very much acknowledged so that you can really find out what works for you.

And with that also very important, diets change and what your [00:22:00] body needs changes. So let's say. I noticed, oh, if I eat chicken before the show, that feels really good. I feel strong. I feel ready. And then a few years later, I'm like, not working anymore. And then that's okay. You just have to listen and be like, okay, I hear your body.

So you're telling me you're needing something else now. And that's all right too. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Yeah, that, that's amazing. And I think so many dancers will learn so much from you because of course, there's nothing like someone else who's walked in your shoes or the shoes that you hope to walk in. You know, cause I think it's really hard to relate to something that you, that you haven't ever done.

So I think that's incredible. And I, I totally agree about. Needs changing over, over time. So with the ABT national training curriculum that you also became certified in, I loved this when I was reading about it, that it was in collaboration with the artistic advisors and the medical advisory board. And what they do is they, they, um, train.

Uh, [00:23:00] teachers, how to train their students to use their bodies correctly, right? Using kinetics, coordination, anatomy, and proper body alignment. And that's so important because, you know, you, you see Dancers going to schools where they are not using their body correctly. I actually have a dancer patient who I can, who I think I can share a little bit more about because I'm actually involved in making a documentary right now.

And she was one of the people who we recorded for the documentary. She had gone to a dance class, and An interesting, it's interesting that you shared your experience with doing the splits because she was told by the dance teacher, the whole class was, by the end of this class, you will all have your splits.

And they spent, I know they spent the entire class on forcing the splits. On forcing the splits, and she is actually not super flexible, so she left that class. Was in terrible pain [00:24:00] and family didn't know what to do. So she basically, uh, became bedridden. So she, she basically didn't do anything for 18 months before she came to see me.

Oh, that's so awful. Isn't that awful? So it's so sad that this young dancer spent 18 months basically in bed or close to it because of a dance class where they, the teacher was, you know, doing something that was terrible for their bodies. So I think it's so important that we have. People that are being trained really, really well so that, cause dance is hard anyway, right?

Ballet especially is so hard and we ask so much of, of, of your body. I, I, I danced as a, as a, you know, younger person. I wanted to be a professional dancer, but that never worked out. Because I had so many injuries growing up, actually. But anyway, that is a very long introduction to the, to the question of what did, what did that certification involve for you and how will you use that in the [00:25:00] future?

Adji Cissoko: I think it was just a reminder of how much responsibility you have as a teacher, right? You have young kids and you can really be in charge of their future. So if you do wrong things with them, you can get them injured. You can lose their passion for dance. I think it's just so big that we, we have to really know what we're talking about and how we built the class.

So when you tell me, It's getting to the splits in a day. That seems crazy. And I hear this so much about really forceful stretching, which they don't recommend at all at ABT. And also there's a certain moment. in the class where the stretching is placed and that's on purpose, right? Because you have to warm up your body.

It's not recommended coming in, going into the splits. No, you're cold, you can pull things and it's just really not healthy and it's actually not getting you anywhere. So, they also really think about, When is it even appropriate to start the bar? So there, there, there is a [00:26:00] moment where your, your brain is actually not quite ready for that.

And then there's also moments, when is it helpful to put on pointe shoes? And that's interesting because my mom, maybe because she, um, worked at the doctor's office or just, she was always conscious about, you know, not hurting myself of ballet. She was like, I don't know. This seems all so extreme. And, and I was like, I understand, but so far it feels like very easy or like normal to me.

But then when it became time for my class to go on point, my mom spoke to the teacher and said, well, I don't believe she should be. to point yet her feet are not grown yet, like fully grown. And she heard that that can be harmful. So I literally went one class back because my mom was saying no. And so at first I was like, Oh, that's so sad.

I'm missing a year, but really now I'm grateful because we just waited one year longer and at least I'm healthy and don't have any problems. So. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Oh my gosh, I, every single dancer needs to [00:27:00] hear that story that you just told because Moira McCormick, who was the lead physiotherapist for the Royal Ballet, told us.

Really, really talented dancers, dancers with gorgeous lines like you have gorgeous articulating feet and flexible ankles and everything should go on point later because they're going to be on point for so much longer. Right? So I so often, and I'm sure you see this on Instagram, for example, you see dancers doing things on point and you're like, She looks like she's about 10 and 

Adji Cissoko: she shouldn't be doing that on point because how she's doing it, I know there's an injury rating.

So, and that's hard too, because sometimes I teach masterclasses and I'm asked to teach point and I'm, and I see the dancers and I don't believe they're quite ready for that because again, it's also about strength, right? Because you can so easily tweak your ankle or roll your foot. So. Is it worth it for that one moment on point rather than [00:28:00] actually getting ready for that?

And I think it's also that kids get excited. So that's where the teacher comes in explaining the reason why we're not doing that yet, because we're not quite there. We have to build up to that. And then we have to do it at the bar first. We can't just jump into center and do fluid taste. There's always, there's a structure to everything.

And it's on purpose because people really thought about. How does one thing build onto the next? That's, that's the trick in all of it. Yeah. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Yeah. We are going to take a quick break and when we come back, we are going to talk about what Adji thinks that dance teachers. can say to parents in terms of going on point and how to do this when the timing is right.

We'll be right back.

We are back with Adji Cissoko. Okay, so we were just talking about going on point and I have heard dance teachers say, Well, but if I don't let them go on point when the dancer wants to on [00:29:00] point, which is often around age 12, right? Um, they're just going to go to another studio where that teacher will put them up on point.

So what would you want? All dance teacher, all ballet teachers to know about how to 

Adji Cissoko: handle these scenarios. I mean, I totally understand their concern. And I think it is a valid concern. Like imagine you're an owner of a ballet studio and you depend on having students. And if everybody around you is just like, Oh, whatever, we'll put them on point.

Like it's tricky. I understand that struggle, but ideally, I think that maybe personally, what I would do is really. inviting all the parents in, let's have a seminar, let's have a talk, because we need to explain where we are coming from. And usually no parent wants their kid to be injured or have a short career or be suffering, right?

I think that Every parent wants only the best for their kid, but if the parents don't know why we are saying no to point at that age or at that [00:30:00] point for that one dancer, for example, It's really all about understanding where we are coming from and our reasoning behind it. And I think that, I mean, I would hope that if I tell a parent, I'm scared that your kid will get injured and that will cause them to not dance very long or whatever, that the parent would understand.

And maybe double think about forcing the kid to go on point. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Yeah, absolutely. And it probably in some scenarios really is. Coming from the dancer and other times coming from the dancer and the parent. But I think that's an excellent point. I think for dance teachers to consider having a seminar for all parents, maybe even in anticipation, being proactive rather than being reactive in anticipation to have that part of their going on point protocol, have all the parents come in.

And maybe even, I know, Dancers and dance teachers are not super fond of slideshows maybe, but I think showing some photos of what the foot looks [00:31:00] like on point, like the x ray of the foot and explaining about the growth plates and things like that, I think maybe would be helpful. And 

Adji Cissoko: now that I'm thinking about it, I think It could also be, there are certain exercises that prepare you for point, like the releves and so, and so you have to get it to a certain level of strength as well.

So having the kids be able to show that they have gotten to that level, and if they're still struggling, it's like, clearly you're not ready, right? Like your ankle strength isn't ready. Um, you're not completing the step beforehand. So maybe it can be a combination of that as well, where, You can also show the kid and the parent that clearly you're still struggling with this one, so let's take a look.

Keep getting better at that. And then we can go to the next step. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: That, that absolutely makes sense. You need that strength and endurance in order to, to go on point. It's, it's a lot, there's a lot more to it than most people realize, of course. So you are also a choreographer, which is amazing. You are so [00:32:00] multi talented.

And so you're on both ends of the choreographic spectrum, right? You're being choreographed on, and then you are also choreographing for other dancers. So what do you think would be the ideal approach? Because of course, we want choreography to be exciting and innovative and the audiences love to see things that they haven't seen before, but of course, we also should be thinking about the dancers and what is appropriate for their bodies and making things sustainable or not, not having certain movements that are going to, you basically cause injury in any dancer.

Adji Cissoko: Yeah, I think there's always that balance, um, when to push and when to just maybe learn for a second, and then also giving the dancers the opportunity to speak up. Like I'm hurting today, today I'm gonna take it a little bit under in the body, but like I'm here 110%, right? Like mentally I'm focused, I'm learning and I'm engaged, but I'm not pushing because I'm hurting.

[00:33:00] So I think that should always be an open space where the dancer feels safe to speak up. Um, and then in terms of choreography, how I choreograph is usually very, personal and from the inside out. And I might show movement, but I'm very interested in how the dancer, each individual approaches that movement.

So how they will do it automatically will be more organic and more based on their facility and how they interpret the movement. So it should be healthy on the body rather than saying, this is how it has to be. And there's no other way. And there's no bigger room for me. Choreography. When I choreograph is I'm trying to choreograph something new, right?

Like something contemporary. And within that, what you bring to the table is just as important as my idea, right? So I have maybe a vision or an idea, but I'm open. I'm in collaboration with the dancers. So I think that already, that fact should make it [00:34:00] healthier on the body. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: So that, to me, sounds amazing and fabulous, and I think that that's a great way to think about it, that if a dancer is feeling like their body is maybe a little more of needing a rest at that time, like you said, being mentally 110 percent there, but maybe kind of marking some things or whatever, that makes a lot of sense.

in reality? Is that, do you see that happening very often? Or, I mean, have we, have we come a long way in that regard? Or what do you think? 

Adji Cissoko: I really think it depends also on the choreographer. Some choreographers, they don't want to hear that. They're like, I'm so focused on choreographing and what I'm envisioning.

Like, it's almost like they have no time for injuries. So then, I'm sure that that still happens a lot and that the dancer will just not speak up. And I think that's also a problem because we want to create a space where the dancer does feel like they can speak up because if they don't say anything, then the [00:35:00] choreographer doesn't know.

And then they keep pushing and they keep demanding. And so it's that, like, it creates that circle where it's like, ah, injury is bound to happen. So I think it's like, creating that safe space, but also knowing like we are, we, we are having to create something. So it's like, be smart about it. And also after rehearsal, it is the dancers responsibility to take care of their bodies.

So you shouldn't like go clubbing afterwards if you're already like feeling like, Oh, my knee is hurting. Right. So it's like that balance, get that sleep, get the best nutrition, like take care of your body so that you can give a hundred percent in rehearsal. but also the rehearsal directors or choreographers responsibility is to create a space where the dancer does feel safe to speak up, which I'm hoping is getting more and more popular.

I feel like when I was just creating with Nashville Ballet 2 a few weeks ago, There were people that were saying, Oh, my back is hurting. And I told him, I don't need you to do this [00:36:00] lift every day. I have seen it. I am trusting that this is okay. Save that for when we do the run throughs. But especially when you're repeating things for music or formations, or maybe even for me to still figure it out.

I'm like, I don't need to see it full out. I don't need to see the lift. I just need you to be in the right space at the right time and do the musicality so that I can fix what I need to fix. So I think it's also really good to communicate that to the dancers so that they know, Oh, this isn't about me dancing right now.

This is about something else. And 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: I would love for every choreographer to approach it in exactly that way. Because I think that as dancers, you're so. aiming to please, right? And you are wanting to do exactly what the choreographer is, is asking of you or the dance teacher, et cetera. So I think that you're, that you're right, that really the choreographer, it's, it's so much better if they really give that permission, because I think otherwise it is really hard for the dancers to [00:37:00] speak up.

Adji Cissoko: But I do also have to say that sometimes we have these aches and pains and we think, Oh, maybe I should take it easy, but sometimes No, like commit to it full out. And so when you are not really hurting, that is going to strengthen you. So it's really also our responsibility to learn more and more about what is really like an injury moment and what is just fatigue or like, I'm a bit sore because we don't want to mistake that because we do want to push and push and push when it's right, when the time is right.

And then we want to lay off when it's not. So really trying to learn more about your body at all times is just so important. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Yeah, absolutely. Hurt versus harm, right? Something can hurt, but it's not. Actually, it's harmful. And you want to use your willpower to push through it so that you realize, oh, yeah, I'm okay.

Yeah. It, boy, getting back, we could summarize this entire podcast [00:38:00] in what you said at the very beginning, dancers listening to their body, because that is really the, the key. And I think so often we are. We're, we're externally focused, right? We're, how does this look? How does the audience perceive this? And, but, but that listening to the body piece is so important.

Adji Cissoko: And I think last thing that I will say about even just the whole choreography process, I don't usually like. for the dancers to focus on the mirror when they are trying things out or coming up with their own movement because then they're so focused on is that height correct or is that foot like and I'm more like interested in like what comes out of you so that we're actually creating something new and usually when you listen more on your body then you won't do something that's actually strenuous or hurting yourself right it's more like when we're so focused on the looks of it that we force things 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Yeah, that's an interesting point.

And there's some very fascinating literature in the dance medicine literature about mirrors, [00:39:00] especially in ballet. I almost wonder if in some instances, if we would be better off to not have mirrors at all, because if you think about it, when you're on stage, you have no mirror. Yeah, I think, 

Adji Cissoko: um, usually I'm always like, let's face away from the mirror.

But I think there's also a reason why we have mirrors and that is to especially young dancers. Sometimes we explain something verbally. But you also need to see at some point to really actually understand it. So I think there's a balance understanding it internally, but sometimes you have to see something to get it.

So I think there's a balance, but in general, I think often the mirrors are overused and they're not helping us actually. Okay. You are so 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: incredibly wise. And I was reading also that when you were seven, the doctors recommended that you start dance. To improve your coordination and your proprioception, which is fascinating because proprioception, or knowing where your body is in space without looking, is actually very commonly [00:40:00] reduced in people that have joint hypermobility, because your end range is not the same as somebody who has, you know, more normal end range.

So people who have more extended range of motion of their joints, it's harder for them to know, Where, where straight is or where their placement is. So, so I thought that was really, really fascinating. And I also read that you had commented about some of your most significant challenges before being, being a professional dancer, being, learning how to appreciate and love yourself and also trying to fit in, but that along the way you changed your mindset.

I loved this. I just thought this was so great. So I had to write all this down and embracing your own individuality That you learned through years of dancing, developing a strong sense of self confidence. And I just love how your self esteem evolved in that process. And I think this is an important thing to talk about because I think that so often dancers, because it's so competitive and because it is, you're [00:41:00] striving for perfection of which there is no such thing, right?

So I think that self esteem is something that a lot of dancers really struggle with. So I would love For you, if you have words of wisdom for younger dancers when it comes to self esteem, I would love to hear that. 

Adji Cissoko: I think it's just a reminder that we need to sometimes be our own. pick me up because teachers, choreographers, people you work with, they almost don't have the time to always tell you, that was good, that was good, that was wonderful, but this is what we need to improve.

So they just jump to the end and tell you all the things that weren't good or that you need to change or that you need to work on, that you need to improve. So hearing that all day long can get so negative and can put you down, but it's almost like you need to remind yourself why you love to dance. all the good things that you have, so that there's that balance created, right?

And then, um, celebrating individuality and reminding yourself that you are, it's literally impossible to be like somebody else. [00:42:00] So I understand that, for example, if you're in the corps de ballet, it's very important to have that unique form, everybody together, and that there's a lot of beauty in that, that I don't want to discredit at all, but in that beauty is also, we still realize that these are all.

A million different people. So, um, you don't, it's, it's not possible to be exactly the same, but you want to all have the same idea and be on the same book, um, page in the book, right? So that when we hear the music, we all want to hear it the same way, so that we can execute that music. movement in the same way as a corps de ballet.

But then what I find even more special is if you have a group of people and they are all reading the same book on the same page, maybe the same word, but yet they're interpreting it very individually. For me, that's even more beautiful to see, but I do understand that in classical ballet, [00:43:00] There is a moment where we all need to move exactly the same.

Um, but with that, you shouldn't forget that you're all different too, and that is beautiful. So we can all train to, um, do the same movement, but yet. Give it also your individual feelings so that it doesn't feel forced and put on, but you want to become the movement. So maybe for some, that means you have to do it over and over again so that it feels like it's coming from within you rather than just forcing yourself to do it.

And that's the hard thing to do. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Yeah, definitely. And I think that self esteem coming from within is such an important point. Cause I think so often we are looking for the external validation. And I think for a lot of, a lot of us who struggle with that, there's, there's never going to be enough. Right.

That's the other problem. 

Adji Cissoko: But also knowing that there is no perfection. So everybody, even the most perfect answer that you think of that you're [00:44:00] like, Oh, they have it all together. Knowing that they don't, they also struggle. They also have issues with self esteem at points they doubt themselves or they are like, was that right?

Or they struggle in class. Like we are all actually having those. Thoughts and those insecurities at all times. It's really about how can you, when those thoughts come in, how can you switch them over and be like, huh, yeah, I do feel a little bit, um, insecure about this one. Let me approach it and let me really figure it out.

Or let me just, rather than being scared or something, switch that word out to curiosity. Alonzo says that a lot, get curious about the movement, get curious about it. And I feel like for me, once I get curious about it, there's that like. Huh. I wonder, I wonder what I can do with that. Or I wonder why I'm off balance today.

Is it, is, am I leaning a little bit? Is my finger off? And with that, there's less of, oh, I'm off today. And so that's not going to help at all. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Right. Right. [00:45:00] No, that, that makes perfectly good sense. Are there things that if you could go back and talk to your younger dancer self? Are there things that you would like to tell, Adji, as a younger dancer?

Adji Cissoko: I think just always keep bringing that love with you. I think sometimes we get so focused on pleasing and so focused on getting it right that we almost like forget that love of dance. And like, whenever I bring that with me, I know I'm invincible because nobody can take that from me. Nobody can take that.

Pure joy that I feel when I move. Nobody can take that experience from me. So the only moment we can lose that is if we leave the love and passion behind. And so you want to always bring that and then take that to the work and start enjoying the work. That's something that I really want to share because.

Sometimes people say, Oh, it's, it must take so much discipline to come to the studio every day and do plies over and over and rehearse. And I think [00:46:00] because I'm starting to enjoy that work is that's why I'm still doing it. And I'm not getting tired of it. And I'm still enjoying and finding pleasure in it.

It's because I'm, really loving to work with curiosity and just being open to everything that gets thrown at me. It's like, okay, that seems difficult. Let's try. I'm curious about what's going to happen. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: I love that word curiosity. I think that we all can benefit from that no matter what type of work that we do.

Um, and I think that yes, so often we Get so caught up in other aspects that we forget to have fun. And I love that because. Dancers, I, my, I had a family member ask me the other day, why do ballet dancers dance? Is it for the money? Yes. And yes, exactly. I just about fell out of my chair. I was like, we definitely should talk about that because, uh, no, um, because they love to [00:47:00] dance.

But, but I think so often we probably do get caught up in so many other aspects that we lose that joy and that love of dance. 

Adji Cissoko: Yeah, it's important to keep reminding yourself why you're even doing that because it's not for the money. It's not. And you shouldn't really do it for the praise either. You should do it a little bit for yourself.

Like it's a little bit selfish, but I think there's also like you want to share, you want to give, which in reward fuels you, um, and just keep, keep reminding yourself of that. And maybe the big words to take away is curiosity. Joy and love. Um, bring that all to the table to have that well rounded meal while you practice and continue to move in that journey.

Absolutely. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Uh, that's a wonderful note to end on, but we have to do one other thing before we're done, and that is to talk about a hypermobility hack. So, I like to end every episode with something that people that have [00:48:00] hypermobile joints, so again, that means that they have more range of motion compared to, I should clarify this, compared to normal people.

So when you look at professional dancers, you have to think about, well, what does a normal person, a normal person look like, right? So do you have a hack that you would like to share with the audience? with people related to hypermobility. 

Adji Cissoko: I mean, my personal one is always strengthen, strengthen, strengthen.

And then another one is. Close your eyes and try visually seeing it from within. What is that movement supposed to be? And then feel it, like, imagine you're doing it and then open your eyes and try it out. Because as you said, sometimes it's hard to feel the ends of things and really understand what's going on.

What is it that I'm trying to do? And so for me personally, it just helps me to maybe just visualize it. Ah, there, I see it. I feel it. And then I approach and I [00:49:00] try it. And sometimes it really helps me. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Yeah, that's wonderful. And they've done lots of studies showing that actually when you do that, what you just said, you activate parts of the brain related to those movements.

And that's something that I think a lot of athletes do. So I think that's a, that's a wonderful tip because. That also exercises your brain in a way that you're not putting more strain on your joints and that kind of thing. So I love that. That that is fabulous. Okay. So we also need to know where we can find out more about you and if you have any exciting projects coming up or anything like that.

So if you can share. Any exciting projects and also where we can learn more about you. 

Adji Cissoko: All right. So my next projects after Vail will be, uh, I'm performing at the Joyce, um, August 12th through the 19th, um, as part of the Unite Festival that's organized by Calvin Royal from ABT. Um, I'll also be in Jamaica performing and then my second [00:50:00] project.

Season with Alonzo King Lion's Ballet starts, um, end of August. And so we'll be in San Francisco, but also doing a lot of touring through the U. S., through Europe. So just kind of check the schedule. Um, but I think there'll be lots of dancing that I'm involved in, hopefully. And yeah, I would love for people to come out and watch and support.

You can learn more about me on my website or on Instagram, ArchieSisako. Um, and yeah, if you ever have any questions, I'm also always happy to answer any questions. Um, personally just DM me or write me and I'll be happy to answer anything. 

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Wow. That's, that's amazing. That's so generous of you and so great to chat with you.

I learned a lot. I'm sure the listeners will have learned a lot as well. And I also, I forgot to mention. That I got to see you perform in January when Lions Ballet was. up here in, um, at the VPAC at the [00:51:00] VLAR Performing Arts Center. So I got to see you then as well, which was, which was absolutely incredible.

Thank you. Yes. Yes, of course. So thank you so much, Adji for taking the time to talk to me and so many dancers, Normal people, you know, non dancers, dance teachers, choreographers are going to learn so much from this conversation. 

Adji Cissoko: Awesome. My pleasure. And that's always the goal, right? To inspire and guide and help.

So thank you for having me.

Dr. Linda Bluesetin: Wow. That was such an amazing conversation with Adji Cissoko. She is so wise and has such vast experiences beyond being a professional ballet dancer. But of course, her professional ballet dance wisdom and knowledge is so incredible and beneficial for all dancers to hear. So thank you. I really am just so grateful that I got the opportunity to speak with her here in gorgeous city of Vail for the Vail Dance Festival.[00:52:00] 

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